Discussion:
THE FALL OF ATHEISM
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Somebody Who Loves You
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"quibbler" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:***@news.readfreenews.net...

A Workman Approved By God - Hermeneutical Study/Bible Doctrine Series

How can I determine whether someone is correctly interpreting God's Word?
In a day and age when there are over 1000 Christian Denominations, and literally
thousands of cults, (and everybody seems to have a different interpretation of scripture),
that's not an insignificant question. So how do you know?

In a word: Hermeneutics.

Which is just a fancy word for the science of biblical interpretation.

"The best antidote to heretical teaching is a good hermeneutical training."

Do you want to learn how to spot error, and rightly interpret scripture.for yourself?
This is the most precise and complete series on that subject of its kind.

Presented by: Mark Kielar

Best Hermeneutical Study and Bible Doctrine
(Systematic Theology) course on video available to date.

Video Presentation (MediaPlayer [600kbps])


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Descriptions
1 A workman approved by God Becoming a Workman & The Ultimate Goal.
2 Who Can Interpret God's Word?; Who Can Interpret God's Word?
3 Who Says the Bible is God's Word? & Who's Teaching You?; Who's Teaching You?
4 Why Should We Study God's Word? & Extra Biblical Writings; Who Should We Study God's word?
5 Re-stoking the Fire & The First Step; Restoking.
6 Bridging the Communications Gaps; Bridging the Communication Gaps.
7A Why Words Matter, Part 1; Words Matter.
7B Why Words Matter, Part 2; Why Words Matter.
8A The Error of Subjective Interpretation, Part 1; The Error.
8B The Error of Subjective Interpretation, Part 2; The Error.
8C The Error of Subjective Interpretation, Part 3; The Error.
9A Literal and Symbolic Interpretation, Part 1; Literal & Symbolic.
9B Literal and Symbolic Interpretation, Part 2; Literal and Symbolic.
9C Literal and Symbolic Interpretation, Part 3; Literal and Symbolic.
10 Context; Context.
11A Superficial Interpretation, Part 1; Superficial Interpretation.
11B Superficial Interpretation, Part 2; Superficial Interpretation.
12A The Grammar Principle, Part 1; The Grammar Principle.
12B The Grammar Principle, Part 2; The Grammar Principle.
13A Selective Citing, Part 1; Selective Citing.
13B Selective Citing, Part 2; Selective Citing.
14A The Need for Systematic Theology, Part 1; Need for Systematic Theology.
14B The Need for Systematic Theology, Part 2; Need for Systematic Theology.
15A Pros & Cons Commentaries, Part 1; Pros & Cons Commentaries.
15B Pros & Cons Commentaries, Part 2; Pros & Cons Commentaries.
15C Pros & Cons Commentaries, Part 3; Pros & Cons Commentaries.
16A Creeds,Confessions and Catechisms, Part 1; Confessions and Catechisms.
16B Creeds,Confessions and Catechisms, Part 2; Confessions and Catechisms.
16C Creeds,Confessions and Catechisms, Part 3; Creeds and Confessions.



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"The best way to drive out the devil, if he will
not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and
flout him, for he cannot bear scorn."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
. Wisdom
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1 Corinthians 1:18-25 NASB)

The Wisdom of God

18 For the word of the cross is ?a?foolishness to ?b?those who ?1?are
perishing, but to us who ?2?are being saved it is ?c?the power of God.

19 For it is written,

"?a?I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,

And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside."

20 ?a?Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater
of ?b?this age? Has not God ?c?made foolish the wisdom of ?d?the world?

21 For since in the wisdom of God ?a?the world through its wisdom did
not come to know God, ?b?God was well-pleased through the
?c?foolishness of the ?1?message preached to ?d?save those who believe.

22 For indeed ?a?Jews ask for ?1?signs and Greeks search for wisdom;

23 but we preach ?1??a?Christ crucified, ?b?to Jews a stumbling block
and to Gentiles ?c?foolishness,

24 but to those who are ?a?the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ
?b?the power of God and ?c?the wisdom of God.

25 Because the ?a?foolishness of God is wiser than men, and ?b?the
weakness of God is stronger than men.

[1]


The cross divides men. The cross divides the saved from the unsaved, but it
doesn't divide the saved people. It should unite them, you see. A Dutch artist
painted a picture called "The Last Judgment." It depicts the throne of God, and
away from that throne the lost are falling into space. And as they fall, they cling
together. This is an accurate picture of the one world that men are working for
today. The lost want to come together in one great unity, and they are going to
accomplish a great union in the last days. But cutting across the grain of the
ecumenical environment and the contemporary thought is the gospel of Christ.
Lord Jesus called Himself a divider of men, and the dividing line is His cross.
The preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto the saved
person it is the power of God.

Paul makes it very clear that his method was not in the wisdom of the words of
the world, not in the method of dialectics of divisions or differences or opinions
or theories, but he just presented the cross of Christ. That brought about a unity
of those who were saved. To those who perish, the cross of Christ is
foolishness; but to the saved man it becomes the power of God. The cross of
Christ divides the world, but it does not divide the church.

[2]


1 Corinthians 1:18 (a)

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness.

The literal translation would more correctly render this verse: "For the
preaching of the Cross is to them that are perishing foolishness." When we tell
people that Jesus loves them, died in place of them, and offers a new life to
them, those who are perishing just don't get it because to deny one's self and
take up the Cross seems foolish to them.

[3]


1 Corinthians 1:18 (b)

.but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Again, a more literal rendering of this verse would be ".but unto us which are
being saved, it is the power of God." Salvation is, in a sense, progressive.
When you opened your heart to Jesus Christ, you were saved from the penalty
of sin. Day by day, we're saved from the power of sin. And when Jesus comes
to take us to heaven, we'll be saved from the presence of sin. The message of
the Cross gives hope when I have failed because Jesus' blood cleanses me
from all sin. It also gives direction to the way I live, for it is only when I deny
myself and take up the Cross that I find life (Matthew 10:38, 39).

1:18 The message (logos) of the Cross, in contrast to the speech (logos) of
human wisdom (v. 17), has the Cross as its central theme. When people hear it,
it produces opposite effects in those who are on the way to perdition and in
those on the way to glory. Paul contrasted foolishness and weakness with
wisdom and power (cf. Rom. 1:16).

"What would you think if a woman came to work wearing earrings stamped
with an image of the mushroom cloud of the atomic bomb dropped over
Hiroshima?

"What would you think of a church building adorned with a fresco of the
massed graves at Auschwitz? . . .

"The same sort of shocking horror was associated with cross and crucifixion in
the first century."30

[4]


1 Corinthians 1:19, 20

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing
the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe?
where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of
this world?

"Where are the debaters, scribes, and thinkers? Where are the psychiatrists
and psychologists?" asks Paul. "What have they done for your culture? Hasn't
God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"

We can either become depressed over the foolish political and judicial
decisions of our leaders-or we can realize they are exactly what God planned
to do all along. We won't be upset if we realize that even the foolishness of the
world is part of God's plan.

1:20 The first three questions in this verse recall similar questions that Isaiah
voiced when the Assyrians' plans to destroy Jerusalem fell through (Isa. 33:18;
cf. Job 12:17; Isa. 19:12). Paul's references to the age (Gr. aion) and the world
(kosmos) clarify that he was speaking of purely natural wisdom in contrast to
the wisdom that God has revealed. God's wisdom centers on the Cross.

"In first-century Corinth, 'wisdom' was not understood to be practical skill in
living under the fear of the Lord (as it frequently is in Proverbs), nor was it
perceived to be some combination of intuition, insight, and people smarts (as it
frequently is today in the West). Rather, wisdom was a public philosophy, a
well-articulated world-view that made sense of life and ordered the choices,
values, and priorities of those who adopted it. The 'wise man,' then, was
someone who adopted and defended one of the many competing public world-
views. Those who were 'wise' in this sense might have been Epicureans or
Stoics or Sophists or Platonists, but they had this in common: they claimed to
be able to 'make sense' out of life and death and the universe."31

[5]


S. Lewis Johnson in The Wycliffe Bible Commentary notes that in context these
"words are God's denouncement of the policy of the 'wise' in Judah in seeking
an alliance with Egypt when threatened by Sennacherib."? 2 How true it is that
God delights to accomplish His purposes in ways that seem foolish to men.
How often He uses methods that the wise of this world would ridicule, yet they
achieve the desired results with wonderful accuracy and efficiency. For
example, man's wisdom assures him that he can earn or merit his own salvation.
The gospel sets aside all man's efforts to save himself and presents Christ as the
only way to God.

[6]


1 Corinthians 1:21

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it
pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

People have their hope restored in the big picture of eternity through that which
the world deems foolish: the preaching of the Word. Paul doesn't say that
people are saved by the preaching of foolishness. You'll know the difference
between the preaching that is the power of God and the preaching of
foolishness by one simple rule of thumb: Does what is being said match up with
the Scriptures? Is it seen specifically in the life of Jesus? Is it practiced
throughout the Book of Acts? Is it taught by Paul in the Epistles? In other
words, is it consistent with the entire New Testament?

Every true teaching, doctrine, and practice is seen in the life of Jesus, practiced
in the Book of Acts, and taught by Paul in the Epistles. Therefore, if a teacher
of preacher suggests something that doesn't match up in all those areas, reject
it. Because there is enough in the Word to keep us busy for every day of our
lives, there is no need to supplement it with deviant doctrine or bizarre
practices.

1 Corinthians 1:22, 23 (a)

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach
Christ crucified.

Whether relating to marriage or government, depression or addiction, parenting,
finances, or doubt, the Cross is indeed the crux of every matter.

Notice that Paul divides mankind into two great ethnic groups: the Jews and the
Greeks (meaning Gentiles). He recognizes this twofold division. The Jew
represented religion. He had a God-given religion. The Jews felt that they had
the truth, and they did-as far as the Old Testament was concerned. The
problem was that it had become just a ritual to them. They had departed from
the Scriptures and followed tradition, which was their interpretation of the
Scriptures. The power was gone. Therefore, when Christ appeared, they asked
for a sign. Rather than turning to their Scriptures, they asked for a sign. "Then
certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would
see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and
adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it,
but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights
in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in
the heart of the earth" (Matt. 12:38-40). The Lord Jesus gave to them the sign
of resurrection.

[7]


1 Corinthians 1:23 (b)-25

.unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto
them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and
the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the
weakness of God is stronger than men.

The Jews stumble at the crucified Christ. Why? They were looking for a
Messiah to lead them militarily and provide for them economically. Therefore,
when Jesus came on the scene and was nailed to a Cross, they discounted Him
immediately. Today we see crosses around necks, on bookmarks, or above
churches. In Jesus' day, however, this would have been equivalent to wearing a
little gold electric chair around one's neck, attaching a mini gas chamber to a
bookmark, or hanging a noose atop a church.

The Greeks didn't find the Cross to be humiliating. They found it to be too
simple. And the Greek mind-set is still present today in those who think the
preaching of the Cross is too simple, that it doesn't deal with the dysfunctional
families, drug addictions, and cultural differences of our complex culture. We
who have personally experienced its power know otherwise.

[8]


"What is truth?" asked the fatalistic Pilate. Bacon asked the same question, and
philosophy is still asking that question. Philosophy still has no answers to the
problems of life. "Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer
of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"

Someone has defined philosophy as a blind man in a dark room looking for a
black cat that isn't there. The Greeks sought after wisdom. Today man is still
searching for some theory or formula, and he thinks that it is through science
that he will get the answers to some of the questions of life. Do you think that
man today has the answers to the questions of life? I was interested in a
statement which I found in a periodical: "The truth is that modern man is
overimpressed by his own achievements. To put a rocket into an orbit that is
more than a hundred miles from the surface of the earth takes a great deal of
joint thought and effort, but we tend to overstate the case. Though men who
ride a few miles above the earth are called astronauts, this is clearly a
misnomer. Men will not be astronauts until they ride among the stars, and it is
important to remember that most of the stars are thousands of lightyears away.
The Russians are even more unrestrained in their overstatements, calling their
men cosmonauts. Someone needs to say, 'Little man, don't take yourself quite
so seriously.'"

Man today thinks he has a few answers. Where are the wise today? It is a
good question to ask. You see, God has made foolish the wisdom of this
world.

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it
pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." This is
a tremendous statement.

"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the
Greeks foolishness." The Jews found the Cross to be a stumblingblock, a
skandalon. They wanted a sign. They wanted someone to show the way. They
wanted a pointer, a highway marker. They would have accepted a deliverer on
a white charger who was putting down the power of Rome. But a crucified
Christ was an insult to them. That meant defeat-not victory. They didn't want
to accept that at all. "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and
rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed" (Rom.
9:33). And Peter wrote this: "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious:
but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed,
the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock
of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient:
whereunto also they were appointed" (1 Pet. 2:7-8). A crucified Christ was a
stumblingblock to the Jew.

To the Greeks (or Gentiles) the cross was foolishness, an absurdity. They
considered it utterly preposterous and ridiculous and contrary to any rational,
worldly system. In Rome there has been found a caricature of Christianity, a
figure on the cross with an ass' head. Also in our day our Savior is being
ridiculed.

Now Paul bears down on philosophy. While he was in the city of Corinth, he
was preaching Christ. "And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed,
he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own
heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles" (Acts 18:6). Can
philosophy lift man out of the cesspool of this life? It never has. Notice that men
will be saved, not by foolish preaching, but by the preaching of "foolishness,"
that is, by the preaching of the Cross. It is not the method but the message that
the natural man considers foolish. Men still reject it. Today the wisdom of the
world is to have an antipoverty program or some other kind of program. Or the
wisdom of the world is to save man from his problems by education. May I say
that what man needs today is the gospel. The wisdom of the world has never
considered that.

Now Paul introduces another class of mankind. "Unto them which are called,
both Jews and Greeks"-these are the called, the elect. They have not only
heard the invitation, they have responded to it. And they have found in the cross
of Christ the wisdom and power of God which has transformed their lives,
made them new men. The Lord Jesus molded eleven men, then called Saul of
Tarsus, and sent them out. They took the gospel to Corinth with its sin, to
Ephesus with its religion. For over nineteen hundred years the gospel has been
going around the world, and it is the only help and the only hope of mankind.

[9]


Evangelist, speaking to Christian after Christian's encounter with Worldly
Wiseman: "I will now show thee who it was that deluded thee. . That man
that met thee is one Worldly Wiseman; and rightly is he so called; partly
because he savoreth only of the doctrine of this world (therefore he always
goes to the town of Morality to church), and partly because he loveth that
doctrine best, for it saveth him from the Cross."

John Bunyan in The Pilgrim's Progress

[10]


SILLY, SUPERFICIAL, AND SIMPLE

Paul had literally been where no man had gone before. He had taken the gospel
to uncharted territories and untested hearers. He understood rejection. When
Paul mentioned audience reactions (1:21), he had the scars to prove just how
violently some resisted the gospel. Problems in sharing the gospel were not
theoretical for Paul.

Those who proclaim the gospel may find that others think they are ridiculous. If
our message did not hold the answer to life and death it might seem silly and
superficial. Though some ridicule it, the gospel remains the simple truth. Paul
described the attitude we ought to have this way: "For I am not ashamed of this
Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone
who believes-Jews first and also Gentiles" (Romans 1:16 nlt). Like Paul, we
must proclaim the simple gospel.

[11]


MIXED REACTIONS

The Good News of Jesus Christ still sounds foolish to many and offensive to
others. It is foolishness to any who have chosen another way to face their
unavoidable appointment with death and what comes after. It is offensive to
those who attempt to maintain a facade of self-righteousness or self-confidence
in the face of life's questions. Those who cannot consider their own sinfulness
will find that the gospel offers a solution they insist they do not need. Our
society worships power, influence, and wealth. Jesus came as a humble, poor
servant, and he offers his kingdom to those who have faith, not to those who
work hard or improve themselves. This may look ridiculous to the world, but
Christ is our power, the only way we can be saved. Make sure you know
Christ personally; then you'll have the greatest wisdom anyone could desire.

[12]


What Is Pragmatism?

Pragmatism is the notion that meaning or worth is determined by practical
consequences. It is closely akin to utilitarianism, the belief that usefulness is the
standard of what is good. To a pragmatist/utilitarian, if a technique or course of
action has the desired effect, it is good. If it doesn't seem to work, it must be
wrong.

Pragmatism as a philosophy was developed and popularized at the end of the
last century by philosopher William James, along with such other noted
intellectuals as John Dewey and George Santayana. It was James who gave the
new philosophy its name and shape. In 1907, he published a collection of
lectures entitled Pragmatism: A New Name for Some Old Ways of Thinking,
and thus defined a whole new approach to truth and life.

Pragmatism has roots in Darwinism and secular humanism. It is inherently
relativistic, rejecting the notion of absolute right and wrong, good and evil, truth
and error. Pragmatism ultimately defines truth as that which is useful,
meaningful, and helpful. Ideas that don't seem workable or relevant are
rejected as false.

What's wrong with pragmatism? After all, common sense involves a measure of
legitimate pragmatism, doesn't it? If a dripping faucet works fine after you
replace the washers, for example, it is reasonable to assume that bad washers
were the problem. If the medicine your doctor prescribes produces harmful
side effects or has no effect at all, you need to ask if there's a remedy that
works. Such simple pragmatic realities are generally self-evident.

But when pragmatism is used to make judgments about right and wrong, or
when it becomes a guiding philosophy of life, theology, and ministry, inevitably it
clashes with Scripture. Spiritual and biblical truth is not determined by testing
what "works" and what doesn't. We know from Scripture, for example, that
the gospel often does not produce a positive response (1 Cor. 1:22, 23; 2:14).
On the other hand, satanic lies and deception can be quite effective (Matt.
24:23, 24; 2 Cor. 4:3, 4). Majority reaction is no test of validity (cf Matt. 7:13,
14), and prosperity is no measure of truthfulness (cf Job 12:6). Pragmatism as a
guiding philosophy of ministry is inherently flawed. Pragmatism as a test of truth
is nothing short of satanic.

[13]


Thinking Again

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when
the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

-Acts 3:19

Peter had preached to the crowd in the temple: Jesus Christ crucified, risen,
ascended; Jesus Christ coming again; Jesus Christ the great Deliverer; the
baptizer with the Holy Spirit; Jesus Christ who alone can refresh us and give us
new life and health and vigor and strength. He had expounded all that, but still
he had not finished, and we have not finished. God forbid that we should finish
without looking at this subject that is left here for us to consider. Far too often
we stop at the wrong point, we do not go all the way, but here it is.

In the light of all this, said Peter, "Repent ye therefore ." Here is the focus of
the whole sermon, and this is the point that pierces. This is an essential and a
vital part of the preaching of the Gospel, and the first thing we must realize is
that this message, this Gospel, is not something theoretical and academic. It is
not just one of a number of views of life that you can take up and read about or
listen to lectures or sermons concerning it and still remain in the position of a
spectator. One can have an intellectual interest in various subjects-"Very
good, very intriguing, very enjoyable." But this is not like that; this is the most
practical thing in the world. This is something that concerns life and living. This
is a life and death matter.

This emphasis was present, in exactly the same way, in the sermon Peter
preached on the day of Pentecost, and it characterizes the whole of the New
Testament teaching. It is a note of urgency: "Repent ye therefore ." Peter was
urgent and insistent. He was not entertaining these people. He was not just out
to deliver an address. He was not a kind of orator. Not at all! This man had
been a fisherman, but suddenly he had been called and commissioned. He had
been sent to do something, and he was alive. He was alert. He was insistent
and urgent. He said, "Repent." He pressed his message upon his listeners, and
thereby he showed them that it was not just of general or theoretical interest. It
is the most urgent and practical thing in the world. So he pleaded with the
people.

[14]


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

a 1 Cor 1:21, 23, 25; 2:14; 4:10
b Acts 2:47; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Thess 2:10
1 Or perish
2 Or are saved
c Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:24
a Is 29:14
a Job 12:17; Is 19:11f; 33:18
b Matt 13:22; 1 Cor 2:6, 8; 3:18, 19
c Rom 1:20ff
d John 12:31; 1 Cor 1:27f; 6:2; 11:32; James 4:4
a John 12:31; 1 Cor 1:27f; 6:2; 11:32; James 4:4
b Luke 12:32; Gal 1:15; Col 1:19
c 1 Cor 1:18, 23, 25; 2:14; 4:10
1 Lit preaching
d Rom 11:14; James 5:20
a Matt 12:38
1 Or attesting miracles
1 I.e. Messiah
a 1 Cor 2:2; Gal 3:1; 5:11
b Luke 2:34; 1 Pet 2:8
c 1 Cor 1:18, 21, 25; 2:14; 4:10
a Rom 8:28
b Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:18
c Luke 11:49; 1 Cor 1:30
a 1 Cor 1:18, 21, 23; 2:14; 4:10
b 2 Cor 13:4

[1]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (1 Co 1:18-25).
LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

[2]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:10). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.

[3]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1014).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

30 30. D. A. Carson, The Cross & Christian Ministry, p. 12.

[4]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (1 Co 1:18). Galaxie Software.

31 31. Ibid., pp. 15-16.

[5]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (1 Co 1:20). Galaxie Software.

? 2 (1:19) S. Lewis Johnson, "First Corinthians," The Wycliffe Bible
Commentary, p. 1232.

[6]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible
Commentary : Old and New Testaments (1 Co 1:19). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.

[7]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:10-11). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.

[8]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1014).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

[9]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:11-12). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.

[10]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (32). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.

nlt Scripture quotations marked NLT are taken from the Holy Bible, New
Living Translation, copyright © 1996. Used by permission of Tyndale House
Publishers, Inc., Wheaton, Illinois 60189. All rights reserved.

[11]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (32). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.

[12]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (33). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.

[13]MacArthur, J. (1993). Ashamed of the gospel : When the Church becomes
like the world (12). Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.

[14]Lloyd-Jones, D. M. (2000). Authentic Christianity (1st U.S. ed.) (291).
Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.
quibbler
2007-07-16 19:16:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
NICE 1 WHERE DID YOU FIND THAT SITE FROM SEE YOU CAN
FIND THE TRUTH IF YOU WANT
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
The problem is that even you don't believe your propaganda. Actually,
atheism is increasing, all over the world, even with the fracturing of
the soviet union.
Somebody Who Loves You
2007-07-16 19:21:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by quibbler
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
NICE 1 WHERE DID YOU FIND THAT SITE FROM SEE YOU CAN
FIND THE TRUTH IF YOU WANT
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
The problem is that even you don't believe your propaganda. Actually,
atheism is increasing, all over the world, even with the fracturing of
the soviet union.
Correct. But atheism is also totally bankrupt (dead), and you know it!


. YEA AND AMEN!

A Topical Study of (2 Corinthians 1:20)

Of the over three thousand promises given to us in Scripture-promises that
deal with health and happiness, peace and prosperity, family and freedom,
finances and security-most of the promises people claim for themselves are
based upon the Old Testament formula seen in the Book of Deuteronomy..

For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command
you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and
to cleave unto him; then will the LORD drive out all these nations from
before you, and ye shall possess greater nations and mightier than
yourselves. Deuteronomy 11:22, 23

So many of the promises we embrace follow the formula that says, "If you
diligently keep these commandments, then God will drive your problems from
you, do wondrous things for you, and take total care of you."

But therein lies the problem.

Oh, I know that if I love the Lord with all my heart, walk in all of His
ways, and cleave totally to Him, then the Lord will indeed do wondrous
things for me and through me, in me and to me. The problem is, do I love
the Lord with all of my heart? Do I walk in all of His ways? Do I cleave
only to Him? The answer, sadly, is no. Therefore, if I'm not doing the
"ifs," I can't expect to receive the "thens."

This shouldn't surprise me, for that was the purpose of the law all along.
According to Galatians 3:24, 25, the purpose of the law was to show us
that we're not righteous, that we can't earn salvation, that we can't
possibly keep the standard of righteousness that would be necessary to
qualify us to receive the blessings we so desire. The law-including the
Old Testament promises-was given to produce in us the realization that
although we wish we could receive the blessings, we can't fulfill the
obligations.

But here comes Paul, telling us that, because Jesus has fulfilled all the
"ifs" in the Old Testament, the promises are all "Yea" and Amen" in Him.
Look again at Deuteronomy 11:22 to see how this works..

For Jesus diligently kept all the commandments that I command you. He
loved the Lord His God, He walked in all His ways, He clave unto Him.

Jesus fulfills the "ifs" perfectly.

"I'm thankful that all of the promises were kept by Jesus," you might be
saying. "But what about me? Because I've failed so miserably keeping the
"ifs," do I have no hope for the "thens"?"

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the
flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen
the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen
the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and
base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen,
yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no
flesh should glory in his presence. 1 Corinthians 1:26-29

By His grace and for His glory, when we opened up our hearts to Jesus, God
placed us-weak and foolish that we are-in Christ. And because Christ
fulfilled the "ifs," we get the "thens," leaving us nothing to do but say,
"Yea and Amen!"

If that sounds too good to be true, think of it this way..

Suppose I'm in Switzerland and I begin to crave a hamburger, fries, and a
shake. The two dollars I have in my pocket will buy just that at Hot and
Now Burgers in Medford, Oregon. Therefore, if I can get to Medford, then I
will have a burger, fries, and a shake. So I call the airport and say,
"Can you give me directions to Medford?"

"What is your mode of transportation?" the official asks.

"I'm broke," I say. "So I'm going to walk."

"Do you realize there are mountains to climb, rivers to ford, and a little
pond called the Atlantic Ocean to cross?" he asks incredulously.

"Yes," I say, "but if I can do it, then I can have a burger."

"Go west," he says. "And good luck." But then, after a moment, he says,
"I'm interested in your plight. It just so happens that Swiss Air Jumbo
Jet 747 flight 203 is leaving for Medford in about an hour. I'll reserve a
seat in first class for you."

As I board the jet and find my seat, I'm not concerned about directions
because I'm in the jumbo jet, and I know the jumbo jet will make it. As we
fly, people on the ground won't even know I was poor and foolish enough to
think I could walk all the way to Medford for a hamburger. No, they won't
even see my foolishness because all they will see is a fabulous jet flying
through the sky headed for Medford.

So, too, when we who were foolish and weak became believers, the Lord
said, "I have a seat reserved for you. Come in." And, because we are
placed in Christ positionally, we cruise to our destination gloriously-not
by walking, climbing, swimming, or hiking, but simply by resting in Him.

You'll know if you are living in the Old Covenant if you hear yourself
saying, "I prayed for forty-five minutes last Thursday. I read four
chapters in Leviticus two months ago. I tithed three years ago. Why aren't
I being blessed?" It is a monumental day in the life of any believer who
finally sees that in Jesus it's no longer "if and then" but "Yea and
Amen!"

Not only is all that we enjoy because of Him, but all that we crave is
found in Him. You see, although we think we need Jesus to give us bread,
He says, "I am the Bread" (John 6:35). We think we need Him to give us
direction, but He says, "I am the Way" (John 14:6). We think we need Him
to open up a job or a relationship or a ministry for us, but He says, "I
am the Door (John 10:7). It's Me you're craving. All the promises of God
are not something that come from Me, but are found in Me."

So there I am on the 747, looking forward to my Hot and Now burger. But
then something amazing happens. As I'm sitting quite comfortably in the
plane, a steward comes by with a thick, juicy steak, a steaming baked
potato, sautied vegetables, crisp salad, flaky croissant, and chocolate
mousse. Suddenly, a Hot and Now burger is the furthest thing from my mind.
Although I thought the Jumbo Jet was simply a way to get me to Hot and
Now, in reality, I'm finding more satisfaction than I ever could have
imagined just being on board.

So, too, we say, "Oh, Lord, I need help." But as we talk things over with
Him, we find that although we initially thought if He answered our prayer,
we'd be happy, we realize it was Him we were craving all along. As a
result, little by little, we find ourselves saying, "Whether the
relationship develops, the sickness is healed, the job opens-it's all
irrelevant compared to what I'm discovering just by spending time with
You, Lord."

The price is paid, dear brother, precious sister. You're in the Jet. Jesus
perfectly fulfilled the "ifs" so you can fully enjoy the "thens." And, as
you do, you'll discover that what you were craving was Him all along.

Yea and Amen!

[1]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1104).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
quibbler
2007-07-17 13:16:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by quibbler
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
NICE 1 WHERE DID YOU FIND THAT SITE FROM SEE YOU CAN
FIND THE TRUTH IF YOU WANT
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
The problem is that even you don't believe your propaganda. Actually,
atheism is increasing, all over the world, even with the fracturing of
the soviet union.
Correct. But atheism is also totally bankrupt
No, it is being adopted precisely because it is more honest, more
realistic and more affirming of life than the lying, out-dated religions
that you cling to in your childish fear. Modern medicine has cured more
disease Than all the faith-healing phonies in your histories. Modern
technology is the primary reason that we have a better life now than
hundreds of years ago. It is a secular salvation which actually exists,
unlike your AWOL fraud Jesus. The exponential advance in key
technologies today promises advances up to and including medical
immortality, instead of the sham immortality after death that you preach.
It's your death cult of ChristInsanity that is "totally bankrupt (dead)"
and you would know it if you weren't so stupid and delusional.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
Somebody Who Loves You
2007-07-17 13:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by quibbler
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
The problem is that even you don't believe your propaganda. Actually,
atheism is increasing, all over the world, even with the fracturing of
the soviet union.
Correct. But atheism is also totally bankrupt
No,
Yep!

Science

Christianity has had a profound influence upon science as well. The biblical
view of an orderly and dependable universe formed and held together by a
divine Creator became the foundation for many of history's scientific
discoveries. Christ's teaching inspired the thinking of many celebrated
forerunners of modern science, including Roger Bacon, Nicolaus
Copernicus, Johannes Kepler, Galileo, Blaise Pascal, and Isaac Newton.
Christian thought also was foundational to applied science-fostering
industrialization, medical progress, space research, and advances in other
scientific fields.

During the 19th and 20th centuries, however, many scientists have tried to
separate science and religion, falsely asserting that natural processes prove
God does not exist. Unable to prove or disprove the existence of God, they
conveniently overlook the evidential order of the universe that early
scientists looked for because of their belief in God.

But recent discoveries and developments show the emptiness of science
without Christ. The problems of ecological imbalances stemming from
scientific progress, the waste of resources, the ability to tamper with human
genes, the ethics of test-tube fertilization, and of nuclear and chemical
weapons, point to the possible abuses of science divorced from God's
design and standards. Today, an increasing number of scientists are joining
a long list of famous forerunners who embraced a biblical faith in Christ.

[1]


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]Bright, B. (1992). A man without equal (76). Orlando, FL: NewLife
Publications.
quibbler
2007-07-18 11:22:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by quibbler
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
The problem is that even you don't believe your propaganda. Actually,
atheism is increasing, all over the world, even with the fracturing of
the soviet union.
Correct. But atheism is also totally bankrupt
No,
Yep!
Wrong, as usual, melchy.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Science
Christianity has had a profound influence upon science as well.
You can say that again, moron. Yet, despite the best efforts of
ChristInsanity to retard the progress of science, it has marched forward,
making people's lives better without the need for the superstition of the
church.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
The biblical
view of an orderly and dependable universe
This view preceded the bible, you fucking ignoramus.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
formed and held together by a
divine Creator
Unnecessary conjecture. The universe had to be somehow and didn't need
an unexplained "creator" to explain its nature.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
became the foundation for many of history's scientific
discoveries.
Try again, fuck nut. You actually might convince someone other than your
own deluded self some time, if you actually furnished any evidence,
rather than your usual, ludicrous banalities. The basic premise of
religion is that science should not even be necessary. God can simply
magic stuff to be however the fuck he wants. The problem is that god and
prayer have no evidence of their efficacy, whereas science does.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Christ's teaching inspired the thinking of many celebrated
forerunners of modern science, including Roger Bacon, Nicolaus
Copernicus, Johannes Kepler, Galileo,
They were inspired to know that the church was holding them back and was
in serious need of reform.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Blaise Pascal, and Isaac Newton.
Even here, these folks realized many of the problems inherent in
religion.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Christian thought also was foundational to applied science-fostering
industrialization, medical progress
But jebus said all you had to do was pray to be healed. The church's
idea of "medicine" was making a pilgrimage to a shrine and kissing a
fucking "holy relic". Hint: That shit didn't work.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
, space research,
Yeah, tell it to Galileo and Bruno, bitch.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
During the 19th and 20th centuries,
You need to read up on the Enlightenment, cunt.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
however, many scientists have tried to
separate science and religion, falsely asserting that natural processes prove
God does not exist.
Your strawman claim notwithstanding, Natural processes make god
unnecessary.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Unable to prove or disprove the existence of God,
There's your ignorance of science again. Science doesn't aim at
"proving" something in an absolute sense. If anything, science has been
remiss because it has ignored the metaphysical nonsense of religion and
allowed obscurantist morons like you to continue to blather.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
they
conveniently overlook the evidential order
Things would always have an order, no matter what their arrangement.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
of the universe that early
scientists looked for because of their belief in God.
It's irrelevant why they initially looked for order. Perhaps they
thought they would prove the existence of Zeus. But the fact is that
order can exist quite apart from any god myth.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
But recent discoveries and developments show the emptiness of science
without Christ.
Which ones are those, you fucking moron?
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
The problems of ecological imbalances stemming from
scientific progress,
No, those took place in spite of the dire warnings of scientists.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
the waste of resources,
Again, most of that is attributable to dominionist judeo-xians and
similar religious know-nothings like yourself.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
the ability to tamper with human
genes,
Explain what injuries have so far resulted from this "tampering" and why
you think that these imagined injuries outweigh the demonstrable
benefits.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
the ethics of test-tube fertilization,
Explain how test-tube fertilization, fought tooth-and-nail by the Roman
Craplic Crutch, actually harms individuals.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
and of nuclear and chemical
weapons,
So you don't want to take credit here for the many christians who
participated in developing these weapons and even the ones who ordered
their use, eh? I bet if Truman had been an atheist then you would have
been full of recriminations about him using nuclear weapons.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Today, an increasing number of scientists are joining
a long list of famous forerunners who embraced a biblical faith in Christ.
No, today you are a stupid delusional fuckwit, just as you've always
been.
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
UR Welcome!
2007-07-18 13:51:33 UTC
Permalink
wrote >> >> >>
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by quibbler
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
The problem is that even you don't believe your propaganda. Actually,
atheism is increasing, all over the world, even with the fracturing of
the soviet union.
Correct. But atheism is also totally bankrupt
No,
Yep!
Wrong, as usual, melchy.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Science
Christianity has had a profound influence upon science as well.
You can say that again, moron. Yet, despite the best efforts of
ChristInsanity to retard the progress of science, it has marched forward,
making people's lives better without the need for the superstition of the
church.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
The biblical
view of an orderly and dependable universe
This view preceded the bible, you fucking ignoramus.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
formed and held together by a
divine Creator
Unnecessary conjecture. The universe had to be somehow and didn't need
an unexplained "creator" to explain its nature.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
became the foundation for many of history's scientific
discoveries.
Try again, fuck nut. You actually might convince someone other than your
own deluded self some time, if you actually furnished any evidence,
rather than your usual, ludicrous banalities. The basic premise of
religion is that science should not even be necessary. God can simply
magic stuff to be however the fuck he wants. The problem is that god and
prayer have no evidence of their efficacy, whereas science does.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Christ's teaching inspired the thinking of many celebrated
forerunners of modern science, including Roger Bacon, Nicolaus
Copernicus, Johannes Kepler, Galileo,
They were inspired to know that the church was holding them back and was
in serious need of reform.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Blaise Pascal, and Isaac Newton.
Even here, these folks realized many of the problems inherent in
religion.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Christian thought also was foundational to applied science-fostering
industrialization, medical progress
But jebus said all you had to do was pray to be healed. The church's
idea of "medicine" was making a pilgrimage to a shrine and kissing a
fucking "holy relic". Hint: That shit didn't work.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
, space research,
Yeah, tell it to Galileo and Bruno, bitch.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
During the 19th and 20th centuries,
You need to read up on the Enlightenment, cunt.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
however, many scientists have tried to
separate science and religion, falsely asserting that natural processes prove
God does not exist.
Your strawman claim notwithstanding, Natural processes make god
unnecessary.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Unable to prove or disprove the existence of God,
There's your ignorance of science again. Science doesn't aim at
"proving" something in an absolute sense. If anything, science has been
remiss because it has ignored the metaphysical nonsense of religion and
allowed obscurantist morons like you to continue to blather.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
they
conveniently overlook the evidential order
Things would always have an order, no matter what their arrangement.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
of the universe that early
scientists looked for because of their belief in God.
It's irrelevant why they initially looked for order. Perhaps they
thought they would prove the existence of Zeus. But the fact is that
order can exist quite apart from any god myth.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
But recent discoveries and developments show the emptiness of science
without Christ.
Which ones are those, you fucking moron?
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
The problems of ecological imbalances stemming from
scientific progress,
No, those took place in spite of the dire warnings of scientists.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
the waste of resources,
Again, most of that is attributable to dominionist judeo-xians and
similar religious know-nothings like yourself.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
the ability to tamper with human
genes,
Explain what injuries have so far resulted from this "tampering" and why
you think that these imagined injuries outweigh the demonstrable
benefits.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
the ethics of test-tube fertilization,
Explain how test-tube fertilization, fought tooth-and-nail by the Roman
Craplic Crutch, actually harms individuals.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
and of nuclear and chemical
weapons,
So you don't want to take credit here for the many christians who
participated in developing these weapons and even the ones who ordered
their use, eh? I bet if Truman had been an atheist then you would have
been full of recriminations about him using nuclear weapons.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Today, an increasing number of scientists are joining
a long list of famous forerunners who embraced a biblical faith in Christ.
No, today you are a stupid delusional fuckwit, just as you've always
been.
ALL atheist debates are one sided vulgarity,
as they are controlled by the evil one, Satan,
but they are totally unaware as to why or how,
or even that there is a blood cure for their disease!

THE EFFECTS OF THE FALL

We do not know how long it was before Adam exercised his will contrary to
the will of God, thus breaking, immediately and completely, the fellowship
which had existed between Adam and God. Sin severed the creature from
fellowship with the Creator! And the effects of Adam's sin are
far-reaching. In the first chapter of the book of Romans, the Apostle Paul
shows the effects of Adam's sin. First of all, the apostle shows that the
intellect of man was darkened by the fall, so that man in his intellect
could not know God. Romans 1:19-20 states, "That which may be known of God
is manifest in them [that is, among them]; for God hath shewed it unto
them. For the invisible things of him [that is, about God] from the
creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things
that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are
without excuse." From these verses we learn that creation is a revelation
of the wisdom of God, and that nature is an open book in which all men may
see two things: God's eternal power, and His Godhood or deity. But even
though men were able, through that revelation, to know something of God,
how did they respond? "When they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations [that is,
their thought processes], and their foolish heart [that is, their seat of
perception], was darkened" (Rom. 1:21). In Ephesians 4:17 the same truth
is affirmed: "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye
henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity [or, emptiness]
of their mind, having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the
life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the
blindness of their heart." There, the apostle affirms again what he taught
in Romans 1, that the heart of the natural man is darkened because of sin.
The apostle did not say that the mind is blindfolded, but rather, blinded.
If one has been blindfolded, all he needs to do is to remove the blindfold
and he will see. But Paul says that men have been blinded by sin. They no
longer have the capacity to see. The first great result then of Adam's sin
is that man's intellect was darkened.

Not only was man's intellect darkened but his emotional capacity was
degraded. "God . gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their
own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed
the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more
than the Creator, who is blessed for ever, Amen. For this cause, God gave
them up to vile affections" (Rom. 1:24-26a). In Ephesians 4:19 we read:
"Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to
work all uncleanness with greediness." It is not that man lost his
emotional capacity, but his emotional capacity was so perverted and
prostituted that it cannot be directed Godward. Thus the natural man
cannot experience fellowship between his heart and the heart of God.

Romans 1 closes by showing us another result of Adam's fall: the will of
man was deadened Godward. In verse 32 we learn that men, "knowing the
judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death,
not only do the same [notice it, do the same], but have pleasure in them
that do them." In Romans 7:18 Paul says, "I know that in me (that is, in
my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how
to perform that which is good I find not." Natural man is marked by the
deadness of his will toward God. In Romans 8:7, the apostle says, "The
carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of
God, neither indeed can be." In Galatians 5:17 the apostle again adds his
testimony, "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against
the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot
do the things that ye would." When you put these passages together, you
find that Paul consistently teaches that while a man still has a will, and
can choose, his will is a will that is enslaved to sin, a will that cannot
and will not exercise itself Godward, a will that wills only that which is
iniquitous.

Because of the fall of Adam, man has been brought under judgment and under
a curse, but he still continues to be a man. He did not lose his
personality; he has not been degraded to the level of an animal. But it is
impossible for man to exercise his God-given capacities Godward. The
unsaved man has an intellect, but it has been darkened and he cannot know
God; he has an emotional capacity, but it has been degraded, and he cannot
love God; he has a will that has been deadened toward God and he cannot
and will not obey God. Even though God created us for fellowship with
Himself, so that He might be glorified through our fellowship with Him,
that purpose is unattainable in the natural man. Man still bears the image
of God and possesses the component parts of personality, yet he has been
so bound and enslaved that he cannot exercise these parts of His
personality Godward to the glory of God.

[1]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]Pentecost, J. D. (2001). Designed to be like Him : Understanding God's
plan for fellowship, conduct, conflict, and maturity. Originally
published: [Chicago, Ill.] : Moody, 1966.; Includes index. (28). Grand
Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications.


Propitiation!

A man in Texas had the urge for a midnight snack. So he rolled out of bed
and walked down the hallway toward the kitchen. Passing the nursery, he
noticed his three-month-old son's bassinet toppled on the floor. Racing
back into the bedroom, he woke his wife to see if she had taken the baby
from the bassinet, but his wife was sound asleep and knew nothing of the
matter. Panic filled his heart as he ran down the hall, down the stairs,
and into the living room, where, much to his horror and shock, he saw his
twelve-foot pet python with a large lump in its center. He knew
immediately what happened to his baby. In anger and outrage, he went to
the back porch, grabbed a splitting maul, chopped up the snake, and ran
out of the front door screaming. He was later committed to a mental
institution.

This true story haunts me and is helpful to me in understanding a
biblical concept often misunderstood by people who wrestle with theology.
You see, although people do not have a problem when we talk about the
love of God, the wrath and judgment of God are things with which people
struggle. Yet if the man in Texas was justified in smashing that snake,
how much more is God justified in dealing with snakelike people who have
devoured others mindlessly and heartlessly.

I think of what happened in Somalia. Tens of thousands of babies starved.
Why? Because war lords were fighting for territory geographically,
jockeying for position politically, and preventing food from reaching
kids who were dying needlessly.

I think of what happened in Bosnia Herzegovina-where women were raped and
men slaughtered by the thousands, all in the name of ethnic cleansing.

I think of Medford, Oregon, where the school board forbids the
distribution of Bibles on school campuses as well as the use of any
school buildings to be rented to any church group for any reason. I
think, wonder, and ponder how it can be that a society that distributes
condoms refuses to allow the distribution of Scripture.

Why does God allow this insanity? Why does He, who sees not only the
tragedy of Bosnia and Somalia, but the utter depravity of even the most
seemingly together person, put up with a world so bent on
self-destruction?

The answer is very simple: Because God made man in His image, He gave him
the ability to choose. And when man chose to listen to the hissing of
Satan rather than to the Word of God, he unknowingly handed dominion of
the planet over to Satan. That's why Jesus called Satan the prince of
this world (John 14:30) and why Paul called him the god of this world (2
Corinthians 4:4). In the Garden of Eden, man turned this planet over to
Satan. That's why there are diseases and rape, war, death, and sadness on
our planet. It's not a matter of God allowing these things. It's a matter
of man giving Satan the authority to cause them.

Meanwhile, God looks down from heaven, and, as He was in Noah's day, is
filled with righteous indignation (Genesis 6:5-7). Yet even in Noah's
day, man found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Genesis 6:8). God looked at
Noah, had grace on Noah, and did a work through Noah. So, too, He will
again pour out His wrath in the period called the Tribulation.

Until then, however, what's the solution for the very genuine wrath God
feels concerning snakelike creatures like you and me? The answer is
propitiation. Why such a big word? Because no smaller word would suffice.
The Greek word translated "propitiation" is hilasterion, which means "to
appease the wrath of." We often say, "God hates the sin but loves the
sinner." While that is true, it is at best a shallow understanding
because the distinction between sin and sinner is not so easily made. You
see, I am not only the baby devoured by the python. I am the python. I am
a victim of sin, yes-but I am also its perpetrator.

Sin hurts people. It destroys mankind. It's cruel, vicious, and wrong.
And my own sin is no less devastating. Thus, God is understandably filled
with righteous indignation, which can only be appeased through
propitiation.

The people of Israel, having been delivered from Egypt, were on their way
to the land promised to them-a land flowing with milk and honey and
wonderful blessings. But en route, they started murmuring and complaining
(Numbers 21:5). The sin of complaining led to suffering in verse 6 as the
people were bitten by poisonous snakes. Suffering led to sorrow in verse
7. Sorrow led to salvation in verses 8, 9, when those who looked upon the
brass serpent were healed. Who was the Brass Serpent? Jesus (John
3:14-16).

Propitiation is God wielding a splitting maul upon the snake, the Brass
Serpent, Jesus Christ-instead of upon me. Am I calling Jesus Christ the
snake? Yes, because He who knew no sin became sin for us (2 Corinthians
5:21) in order that the wrath of the Father over the sin of the world
would be appeased. Instead of smashing a world that is snakelike and
bestial, He turned to His innocent Son and laid upon Him the iniquity of
us all.

Jesus understood this. That's why in the Garden of Gethsemane, He prayed
with such intensity, "Father, if possible, don't let Me drink of this
cup" (see Matthew 26:39). Socrates took the cup of hemlock and drank it
bravely. Was Jesus less than Socrates? No. It wasn't physical death Jesus
feared; it was the wrath of His Father that caused Him to break out in a
bloody sweat (Luke 22:44). Jesus knew what it meant to be the
propitiation, the satisfaction, the appeasement of wrath.

"The Father pouring out His anger upon His innocent Son is a form of
child abuse," you say. Wait a minute. What is the name of the Son?
Almighty God, Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6). You see, God Himself
became a Man and absorbed the wrath of His own indignation. The mystery
of the Trinity, the mystery of propitiation is that God actually wielded
the splitting maul upon Himself.

Hilasterion, or "propitiation"-the word we don't hear much today-is used
only five times in the entire New Testament: Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2; 1
John 4:10; and Hebrews 9 are four of them. The Hebrews reference, I
believe, is a real key to unlocking this understanding, for in describing
the mercy seat, the author of Hebrews uses the word hilasterion. The
mercy seat, or hilasterion, covered the ark of the covenant. The ark of
the covenant contained the law. Therefore, through the mercy seat, God
says, "I know you've broken the law. I know you deserve to be consumed
because of it. But I'm going to put a lid on it through the sacrifice of
My Son. He is the helasmos, the mercy seat, the propitiation. It's not
something He gives. It's who He is, for He has come between you and the
broken law. The wrath that I should vent on you was instead placed upon
My Son, who died in your place."

The fifth use of the word "propitiation" is found in Luke 18. If you feel
offended that I would liken you to a baby-eating python, if you are
repulsed by a God who would became a Man and slaughter Himself to
propitiate His righteous indignation, Luke 18:10-14 is the passage for
you. It is a brief vignette, concerning the prayers of a Pharisee and a
tax collector. Look at verse 13: "God, be merciful to me a sinner." It
begins with "God" and ends with "sinner." The middle phrase, "be
merciful"-the verb form of hilasterion-stands between God and sin. Every
one of us is in one of two categories. You're either the self-righteous
Pharisee, or you're the tax collector, grateful that Jesus is standing
between God and your sin.

What does a correct understanding of the concept of propitiation do?

Propitiation blows my mind. Propitiation adds an entirely different
dimension to what Paul calls "so great salvation" (Hebrews 2:3). It's not
just the Father saying, "I'm going to settle mankind's problem
judicially." No, He deals with it personally.

Propitiation warms my heart. That God would love me so much He would
actually become the object of His own wrath touches my heart in a
profound way.

Propitiation weakens my knees. Considering the righteous wrath of a
powerful God makes me realize that sin is serious. The Bible says the
beginning of wisdom is to fear God (Proverbs 1:7). And it goes on to say
that to fear God is to hate sin (Proverbs 8:13). The concept of
propitiation makes me question my own view of sin. How do I react when I
see things on the screen or hear unkind words come from my own mouth? If
you're knowingly sinning today in what you're doing, or where you're
going, I encourage you to think through propitiation.

Propitiation tickles my toes. Jacob was in a place he called Luz, or
"separation" After tricking his brother Esau out of his birthright and
blessing, he was in the wilderness running for his life. That night, as
he laid his head on a rock and tried to sleep, God revealed Himself to
him, pouring out a blessing upon him and giving a promise to him. Jacob
woke up and said, "Surely I am in the presence of God and I knew it not."
And he changed the name of the location from Luz to "Bethel," or "house
of God." Then, as we read in Genesis 29:1, Jacob "went on his journey."
Translated literally this phrase reads, "Jacob had happy feet."

"I'm a creep. I'm a crook. I'm a criminal," he said, "but the Lord met
me, has a plan for me, and is going to travel with me. Now I have happy
feet."

So, too, I say, "Oh, Lord, I know I'm a sinner. But because You absorbed
the anger that should have been poured out upon me, I leave here today
with tickled toes, weakened knees, a warmed heart, and a blown mind!"

May God continue to give us a comprehension of His love through an
understanding of propitiation.

In Jesus' Name.

[1]

A Topical Study of Romans 3:23-25

(Romans 3:23-25 NASB)

23 for all ?1??a?have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 being justified as a gift ?a?by His grace through ?b?the
redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

25 whom God displayed publicly as ?a?a ?1?propitiation ?2??b?in
His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness,
?3?because in the ?c?forbearance of God He ?d?passed over the sins
previously committed;

[2]

3:25 God set forth Christ Jesus as a propitiation. A propitiation is a
means by which justice is satisfied, God's wrath is averted, and mercy
can be shown on the basis of an acceptable sacrifice.

Three times in the ?NT? Christ is spoken of as a propitiation. Here in
Romans 3:25 we learn that those who put their faith in Christ find mercy
by virtue of His shed blood. In 1 John 2:2 Christ is described as the
propitiation for our sins, and for those of the whole world. His work is
sufficient for the whole world but is only effective for those who put
their trust in Him. Finally, in 1 John 4:10, God's love was manifested in
sending His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

The prayer of the publican in Luke 18:13 was literally "God be propitious
to me, the sinner." He was asking God to show mercy to him by not
requiring him to pay the penalty of his aggravated guilt.

The word propitiation also occurs in Hebrews 2:17: "Therefore, in all
things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful
and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make
propitiation for the sins of the people." Here the expression "to make
propitiation" means to put away by paying the penalty.

The ?OT? equivalent of the word propitiation is mercy-seat. The
mercy-seat was the lid of the ark. On the Day of Atonement the high
priest sprinkled the mercy- seat with the blood of a sacrificial victim.
By this means errors of the high priest and of the people were atoned for
or covered.

When Christ made propitiation for our sins, He went much further. He not
only covered them but did away with them completely.

Now Paul tells us in 3:25 that God set Christ forth as a propitiation by
His blood, through faith. We are not told to put our faith in His blood;
Christ Himself is the object of our faith. It is only a resurrected and
living Christ Jesus who can save. He is the propitiation. Faith in Him is
the condition by which we avail ourselves of the propitiation. His blood
is the price that was paid.

The finished work of Christ declares God's righteousness for the
remission of sins that are past. This refers to sins committed before the
death of Christ. From Adam to Christ, God saved those who put their faith
in Him on the basis of whatever revelation He gave them. Abraham, for
example, believed God, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness (Gen.
15:6). But how could God do this righteously? A sinless Substitute had
not been slain. The blood of a perfect Sacrifice had not been shed. In a
word, Christ had not died. The debt had not been paid. God's righteous
claims had not been met. How then could God save believing sinners in the
OT period?

The answer is that although Christ had not yet died, God knew that He
would die, and He saved men on the basis of the still-future work of
Christ. Even if ?OT? saints didn't know about Calvary, God knew about it,
and He put all the value of Christ's work to their account when they
believed God. In a very real sense, ?OT? believers were saved on credit.
They were saved on the basis of a price still to be paid. They looked
forward to Calvary; we look back to it.

That is what Paul means when he says that the propitiation of Christ
declares God's righteousness because He had passed over the sins that
were previously committed. He is not speaking, as some wrongly think, of
sins which an individual person has committed before his conversion. This
might suggest that the work of Christ took care of sins before the new
birth, but that a man is on his own after that. No, he is dealing with
the seeming leniency of God in apparently overlooking the sins of those
who were saved before the cross. It might seem that God excused those
sins or pretended not to see them. Not so, says Paul. The Lord knew that
Christ would make full expiation, and so He saved men on that basis.

So the ?OT? period was a time of the forbearance of God. For at least
4000 years He held back His judgment on sin. Then in the fullness of time
He sent His Son to be the Sin-bearer. When the Lord Jesus took our sins
upon Himself, God unleashed the full fury of His righteous, holy wrath on
the Son of His love.

[3]

--------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (894).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

1 Or sinned a Rom 3:9 a Rom 4:4f, 16; Eph 2:8 b 1 Cor 1:30; Eph 1:7; Col
1:14; Heb 9:15 a 1 John 2:2; 4:10 1 Or a propitiatory sacrifice 2 Or by b
1 Cor 5:7; Heb 9:14, 28; 1 Pet 1:19; Rev 1:5 3 Lit because of the passing
over of the sins previously committed in the forbearance of God c Rom 2:4
d Acts 14:16; 17:30

[2]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Ro 3:23). LaHabra,
CA: The Lockman Foundation.

NT New Testament OT Old Testament

[3]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible
Commentary : Old and New Testaments (Ro 3:25). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.



Propitiation - Part 2

Now we are coming to another wonderful word: propitiation, and propitiation is
toward God. It occurs seven times in the Greek text of the New Testament. The
reason it may not occur all seven times in your Bible is because in several places
it's not translated correctly into the same English word propitiation. For instance:

Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a
merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation
[reconciliation in some English translations] for the sins of the people. (Hebrews
2:17)

It should be propitiation here, for it is that in the Greek.

First of all, let me say that the word propitiation is absolutely void of any pagan
meaning. If you have read any Greek mythology or read anything concerning the
pagan religions, or if you've read any of the stories of the Greeks, you will recall
that even Agamemnon had to make a human sacrifice to appease the gods on
Mount Olympus. They were perceived to be angry, therefore a sacrifice had to be
made, and that was called a propitiation. In fact, the Greeks used it like that.

Well, may I say to you that the word as used in the Scripture does not even hint of
being used to appease a deity. It doesn't convey the idea that God is angry and
you've got to do something to win Him over. It doesn't have that thought at all.

Therefore, I want to turn to several passages where this word occurs, and let's
look at them. First,

. being justified freely [that is, without a cause] by His grace through the
redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His
blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance
God had passed over the sins that were previously committed. (Romans 3:24-25)

The word propitiation actually means "?place of propitiation.?" I want us to see
something in Hebrews, where we'll find again this word in the Greek text. It is not
translated propitiation here but with another word, a very vivid word. I'll move
back and quote a few verses before the occurrence of this word since the writer to
the Hebrews is describing the tabernacle. He says:

. behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of
All, which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides
with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron's rod that
budded, and the tablets of the covenant; and above it were the cherubim of glory
overshadowing the mercy seat [here is our word propitiation].. (Hebrews 9:3-5)

Propitiation means "?to be a mercy seat.?" That's the picture. Notice again the
passage in Romans for just a moment:

. whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to
demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over
the sins that were previously committed. (Romans 3:25)

This is the tabernacle. Outside was the laver and also the brazen altar.

The Holy Place. The entrance faced east. Inside there was the golden lampstand
on the left (south), and over on the right (north) the table of showbread, and then
before the veil was the golden altar, which speaks of prayer.

The Golden Altar. It is interesting that the writer to the Hebrews puts the golden
altar inside the Holiest of All. The Old Testament places it in front of the veil, so
why did the writer to the Hebrews put it inside where the ark is? Because when
we come to the New Testament the veil which represented the body of Christ is
torn in two, opening the way into the presence of God, and Christ has gone up to
heaven. This altar of prayer is where the priest went to pray. And that's where our
Lord is now. He is in heaven, making intercession for us. Properly, the altar of
prayer belongs there now.

The Holiest of All. Behind the veil was the ark. And inside the ark there were three
things-the tables of stone on which the Ten Commandments were written, a pot
of manna, and Aaron's rod that budded. On top of the ark, which was shaped like
a box, there was this very highly ornamented cover with two cherubim of gold
over-shadowing it. Once a year the high priest went inside, and we are told that
the Shekinah Glory was there, indicating that God dwelt there. This is where they
were to meet with Him, and the high priest went there once a year and sprinkled
blood on the ark's cover between the cherubim. And this is the throne of God
where the presence of the holy God is. Now it is a mercy seat. It's where God can
extend mercy to His people. That which was a throne of judgment before has
become a mercy seat now.

Let's refer again to Romans 3:25. The apostle Paul, speaking of Christ, wrote,
"?Whom God set forth as a propitiation [mercy seat].?" Christ on the cross served
as our mercy seat. We know that as He hung on the cross, blood was running
down His face from that thorny crown, blood was coming from the nails in His
hands and in His feet. It is John who mentions the propitiation, by the way. He and
Paul are the only two writers who do that. John tells us at the time of the
crucifixion:

One of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and
water came out. And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and
he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. (John 19:34-35)

We know that this made a tremendous impression on John because, when he
wrote his first epistle, he made this statement again. He didn't forget about this
incident:

This is He who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by
water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
(1 John 5:6)

Without going into detail, we will skip verse 7 since it is not in our better
manuscripts:

And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood;
and these three agree as one. (1 John 5:8)

John was present at the crucifixion. Remember it was there at the cross that the
Lord said to him, "?Behold your mother!?" In other words, "?You take care of
My mother,?" and John says, "?When I was there I watched, and I was very
close.?" It seems that at the trial of Jesus, John got in closer than anyone else. And
he's also closer at the crucifixion than anyone else. He said in effect, "?While I was
watching, blood was coming from His head, blood was coming from His hands
and His feet. Finally, this soldier came up to make sure He was dead, and he ran a
spear into His side.?" John says, "?Out of that side there came water and blood.?"
May I say that John is going to tell us that our Lord was the propitiatory sacrifice
for our sins. It was Christ, Paul says, "?whom God set forth as a propitiation by
His blood, through faith?" (Romans 3:25). Jesus Christ on the cross shed His
blood. I think that every drop of blood went out of His body and that His whole
body was covered with His blood. That, my friend, is the mercy seat for you and
me. Because He shed His blood, taking your place and my place, a holy God now
is able to extend mercy to us. And that's the meaning of propitiation. It means
simply that Christ is our mercy seat.

Now I want to follow through on what John has said. Let's look at that for just a
moment:

And He Himself [Jesus Christ] is the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 2:2)

John is the one who says, "?I was there and I saw that soldier put the spear in His
side, and there came out blood and water.?" And he adds, "?These three bear
witness on earth and they agree.?" The Spirit and the water and the blood-and
that blood speaks of the fact that He shed His blood that He might be the
propitiation for your sins and my sins. This is tremendous! "?He Himself is the
propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.?"

Notice something here which is very important: John said this: "?My little children,
these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.?" Well, John, I wish I could
say I didn't sin, but I do. Now what shall I do?

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the
righteous. (1 John 2:1)

And after all, John says, "?He Himself is the propitiation for our sins,?" referring to
our sins as Christians. I need a mercy seat every day, don't you? I don't want
justice from God. I don't want Him to treat me on the basis of legality because I
would come off a loser. I want mercy from God. That's the thing I want from
Him-mercy. And that is the thing both you and I need. He is the propitiation for
our sins.

John doesn't stop there:

. and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

There is a mercy seat today for every person on topside of this earth. And people
are not lost because of the fact they are so bad and cannot do enough to gain
God's forgiveness. That's not the reason. They are lost because they won't go to
the mercy seat. There's mercy for every person. God is merciful today. And the
reason He is merciful is not because He's just bighearted and sort of sentimental.
No, He is not that. God is holy and righteous. And He loves. God loved long
before He did anything about it-but God is not only love, God is holy. And
though He might love a sinner, He cannot take the sin into heaven. But then Christ
died and was covered with blood. So He is the mercy seat. A holy God now can
extend mercy because Christ paid the ultimate penalty for our sin.

And that's not all. He wants to mention it again to us: "?In this is love, not that we
loved God, but that He loved us.?" He loved us, and what did He do? Did He
fling open the door of heaven and say, "?Everybody, come in?"? No, He cannot
do that because He is holy.

In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be
the propitiation [to be the mercy seat] for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

And so today a holy God is prepared to extend mercy down here to lost men and
lost women.

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless
deeds I will remember no more. (Hebrews 8:12)

God says, "?I will be merciful to their unrighteousness.?" How can a holy God do
that? Because there is Christ on the cross, covered with blood, His precious blood
is poured out, and there is a mercy seat. The throne of God, where a holy God
would judge you and judge me-that very throne at this moment extends mercy to
us.

Oh, my friend, God is not a police officer waiting around the corner to give you a
ticket or to find fault with your conduct. God is not demanding. He is saying to the
world tonight, "?I have My arms outstretched toward you, and I am prepared to
extend mercy to you because Christ died. There is a mercy seat for you.?"

Now let's see that in action. Turn with me to the eighteenth chapter of Luke's
Gospel, starting with verse 9, our Lord

spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous,
and despised others: "?Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee,
and the other a tax collector [a publican]. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with
himself..?"

It's sort of like Hamlet's soliloquy. In Shakespeare's play, Hamlet goes out and
talks to no one but himself:

To be, or not to be, that is the question:

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer

The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,

Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,

And by opposing, end them? To die, to sleep-

No more, and by a sleep to say we end

The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks

That flesh is heir to; 'tis a consummation

Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep-

To sleep, perchance to dream-ay, there's the rub,

For in that sleep of death what dreams may come..

And so on. He's just talking to himself. And when a soliloquy is done by a fine
actor, with expression, it's tremendous! But may I say that the Pharisee's prayer
was a soliloquy. Our Lord says, "?He prayed thus with himself.?" He didn't pray it
to God. He had a big time patting himself on the back and, in essence, said,
"?What a fine actor I am!?" And an actor was what he was.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, "?God [although he addresses
God, he is not really talking to Him], I thank You that I am not like other
men-extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a
week; I give tithes of all that I possess.?" (Luke 18:11-12)

Now that's what a lot of people brag about today. But, you see, that kind of talk
didn't get anywhere, didn't get out of the rafters, and it did not get to God. My
friend, you never get to God when you go to Him and tell Him how good you are
and all that you're doing for others. No one gets to our holy God that way.

Then will you notice, a publican, a despised tax collector, was there.

And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to
heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "?God, be merciful to me a sinner!?" (Luke
18:13)

The only thing is, he didn't actually say, "?God, be merciful to me a sinner.?"
Literally, he said, "?O God, if there was only a mercy seat for me to go to!?" You
see, the Pharisee was the fundamentalist of that day, and he was quite separated.
Well, listen to him, and know that everything he said was true. He said, "?I do
this,?" and he did do it, friend. And he said, "?I'm not like this publican,?" and he
wasn't. But he sure was proud, and he was depending on his works. He was
depending on himself, not recognizing he needed to have mercy from God. As you
know, most people-your neighbors and my neighbors-don't think they need
mercy from God. Oh, my friend, we all need mercy from Him. He is the
propitiation for our sins. For those of us who are Christians, He is the mercy seat
for our sins. And He is the mercy seat for the sins of the whole world.

But this publican stands way off and he beats his breast. He won't even look up.
He says, "?God, I'm a poor publican. I have no access to that mercy seat yonder
in the temple. If there was only a mercy seat for me to go to!?" Why did he say
that? Because when he became a publican he denied his people. When he denied
his people, he denied his God and his religion, and he no longer had any access to
the mercy seat in the temple of that day. Therefore when he went to the temple to
pray, he couldn't claim mercy there. He was pleading, "?O God, if there was only
a mercy seat for a publican to go to.?" And the Lord Jesus Christ said, "?That
fellow went down justified.?" Why? Because the Lord Jesus right there and then
was on His way to make a mercy seat for him.

And our Lord has made a mercy seat for you and me. Today we don't need to
ask God to be merciful. My friend, He is already merciful! What can you do to
make Him merciful? Do you think you can shed a few little tears and win Him
over? Do you think you could promise to do some good little thing to persuade
Him? My friend, what do you want Him to do? He gave His Son to die for you.
Don't you know that when Christ died on the cross He paid the penalty for your
sins? You can't add anything to that. He is holding out His arms to you. Don't ask
God to be merciful-claim it, my friend! Claim it!

That's the way I stay in fellowship with Him. Bad as I am, I have to go to Him
constantly and say, "?Lord, I need mercy. Oh, I need mercy.?" He hasn't run out
of it yet, and He has enough for you. In fact, He has enough for the whole world.
Jesus Christ is the mercy seat for the sins of the whole world. Oh, how we need to
get to that mercy seat! Have you been there recently?

[1]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]McGee, J. V. (2000, c1996). Doctrine for difficult days (electronic ed.) (148).
Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
Irv Hyatt
2007-07-18 15:17:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by quibbler
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by quibbler
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
The problem is that even you don't believe your propaganda.
Actually,
atheism is increasing, all over the world, even with the fracturing of
the soviet union.
Correct. But atheism is also totally bankrupt
No,
Yep!
Wrong, as usual, melchy.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Science
Christianity has had a profound influence upon science as well.
You can say that again, moron. Yet, despite the best efforts of
ChristInsanity to retard the progress of science, it has marched forward,
making people's lives better without the need for the superstition of the
church.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
The biblical
view of an orderly and dependable universe
This view preceded the bible, you fucking ignoramus.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
formed and held together by a
divine Creator
Unnecessary conjecture. The universe had to be somehow and didn't need
an unexplained "creator" to explain its nature.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
became the foundation for many of history's scientific
discoveries.
Try again, fuck nut. You actually might convince someone other than your
own deluded self some time, if you actually furnished any evidence,
rather than your usual, ludicrous banalities. The basic premise of
religion is that science should not even be necessary. God can simply
magic stuff to be however the fuck he wants. The problem is that god and
prayer have no evidence of their efficacy, whereas science does.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Christ's teaching inspired the thinking of many celebrated
forerunners of modern science, including Roger Bacon, Nicolaus
Copernicus, Johannes Kepler, Galileo,
They were inspired to know that the church was holding them back and was
in serious need of reform.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Blaise Pascal, and Isaac Newton.
Even here, these folks realized many of the problems inherent in
religion.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Christian thought also was foundational to applied science-fostering
industrialization, medical progress
But jebus said all you had to do was pray to be healed. The church's
idea of "medicine" was making a pilgrimage to a shrine and kissing a
fucking "holy relic". Hint: That shit didn't work.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
, space research,
Yeah, tell it to Galileo and Bruno, bitch.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
During the 19th and 20th centuries,
You need to read up on the Enlightenment, cunt.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
however, many scientists have tried to
separate science and religion, falsely asserting that natural processes prove
God does not exist.
Your strawman claim notwithstanding, Natural processes make god
unnecessary.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Unable to prove or disprove the existence of God,
There's your ignorance of science again. Science doesn't aim at
"proving" something in an absolute sense. If anything, science has been
remiss because it has ignored the metaphysical nonsense of religion and
allowed obscurantist morons like you to continue to blather.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
they
conveniently overlook the evidential order
Things would always have an order, no matter what their arrangement.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
of the universe that early
scientists looked for because of their belief in God.
It's irrelevant why they initially looked for order. Perhaps they
thought they would prove the existence of Zeus. But the fact is that
order can exist quite apart from any god myth.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
But recent discoveries and developments show the emptiness of science
without Christ.
Which ones are those, you fucking moron?
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
The problems of ecological imbalances stemming from
scientific progress,
No, those took place in spite of the dire warnings of scientists.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
the waste of resources,
Again, most of that is attributable to dominionist judeo-xians and
similar religious know-nothings like yourself.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
the ability to tamper with human
genes,
Explain what injuries have so far resulted from this "tampering" and why
you think that these imagined injuries outweigh the demonstrable
benefits.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
the ethics of test-tube fertilization,
Explain how test-tube fertilization, fought tooth-and-nail by the Roman
Craplic Crutch, actually harms individuals.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
and of nuclear and chemical
weapons,
So you don't want to take credit here for the many christians who
participated in developing these weapons and even the ones who ordered
their use, eh? I bet if Truman had been an atheist then you would have
been full of recriminations about him using nuclear weapons.
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Today, an increasing number of scientists are joining
a long list of famous forerunners who embraced a biblical faith in Christ.
No, today you are a stupid delusional fuckwit, just as you've always
been.
You are only encouraging him by reading this junk and responding.
Do you really think he reads what you write?
KILL KILL KILL
Post by quibbler
--
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
Syd M.
2007-07-18 16:36:35 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 17, 9:20 am, "Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by quibbler
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
The problem is that even you don't believe your propaganda. Actually,
atheism is increasing, all over the world, even with the fracturing of
the soviet union.
Correct. But atheism is also totally bankrupt
No,
Yep!
Nope.
No matter how many a lie is repeated, it's still a lie.

PDW
Syd M.
2007-07-18 16:33:52 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 16, 3:21 pm, "Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by quibbler
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
NICE 1 WHERE DID YOU FIND THAT SITE FROM SEE YOU CAN
FIND THE TRUTH IF YOU WANT
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
The problem is that even you don't believe your propaganda. Actually,
atheism is increasing, all over the world, even with the fracturing of
the soviet union.
Correct. But atheism is also totally bankrupt (dead), and you know it!
No.
He knows nothing of the sort because your lying again.

<Snip regurgited crap>

PDW
Somebody Who Loves You
2007-07-16 19:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by quibbler
NICE 1 WHERE DID YOU FIND THAT SITE FROM SEE YOU CAN
FIND THE TRUTH IF YOU WANT
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
http://76.162.173.93/uit/coa/

. Marx/Lennon (Liberal Socialism)
http://76.162.173.93/uit/mls/

. Cosmic Humanist Worldview
http://76.162.173.93/uit/chw/chw.wmv

. Secular Humanist Worldview
http://76.162.173.93/uit/shw/shw.wmv

. Biblical Christian Worldview
http://76.162.173.93/uit/bcw/bcw.wmv

. The Perfect Stranger
http://76.162.173.93/misc/tps/
Post by quibbler
The problem is that even you don't believe your propaganda. Actually,
atheism is increasing, all over the world, even with the fracturing of
the soviet union.
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th
2007-07-17 00:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
NICE 1 WHERE DID YOU FIND THAT SITE FROM SEE YOU CAN
FIND THE TRUTH IF YOU WANT
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
http://76.162.173.93/uit/coa/
LOL. Wishful thinking. Atheism isn't going away chump. Does it burn?

Klazmon.
Somebody Who Loves You
2007-07-17 00:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
http://76.162.173.93/uit/coa/
LOL. Wishful thinking. Atheism isn't going away chump. Does it burn?
I hope atheism does not go away, as that would make salvation through
Jesus' Propitiation a non event, instead of the miracle it now is.

. Propitiation!

A man in Texas had the urge for a midnight snack. So he rolled out of bed
and walked down the hallway toward the kitchen. Passing the nursery, he
noticed his three-month-old son’s bassinet toppled on the floor. Racing
back into the bedroom, he woke his wife to see if she had taken the baby
from the bassinet, but his wife was sound asleep and knew nothing of the
matter. Panic filled his heart as he ran down the hall, down the stairs,
and into the living room, where, much to his horror and shock, he saw his
twelve-foot pet python with a large lump in its center. He knew
immediately what happened to his baby. In anger and outrage, he went to
the back porch, grabbed a splitting maul, chopped up the snake, and ran
out of the front door screaming. He was later committed to a mental
institution.

This true story haunts me and is helpful to me in understanding a
biblical concept often misunderstood by people who wrestle with theology.
You see, although people do not have a problem when we talk about the
love of God, the wrath and judgment of God are things with which people
struggle. Yet if the man in Texas was justified in smashing that snake,
how much more is God justified in dealing with snakelike people who have
devoured others mindlessly and heartlessly.

I think of what happened in Somalia. Tens of thousands of babies starved.
Why? Because war lords were fighting for territory geographically,
jockeying for position politically, and preventing food from reaching
kids who were dying needlessly.

I think of what happened in Bosnia Herzegovina—where women were raped and
men slaughtered by the thousands, all in the name of ethnic cleansing.

I think of Medford, Oregon, where the school board forbids the
distribution of Bibles on school campuses as well as the use of any
school buildings to be rented to any church group for any reason. I
think, wonder, and ponder how it can be that a society that distributes
condoms refuses to allow the distribution of Scripture.

Why does God allow this insanity? Why does He, who sees not only the
tragedy of Bosnia and Somalia, but the utter depravity of even the most
seemingly together person, put up with a world so bent on
self-destruction?

The answer is very simple: Because God made man in His image, He gave him
the ability to choose. And when man chose to listen to the hissing of
Satan rather than to the Word of God, he unknowingly handed dominion of
the planet over to Satan. That’s why Jesus called Satan the prince of
this world (John 14:30) and why Paul called him the god of this world (2
Corinthians 4:4). In the Garden of Eden, man turned this planet over to
Satan. That’s why there are diseases and rape, war, death, and sadness on
our planet. It’s not a matter of God allowing these things. It’s a matter
of man giving Satan the authority to cause them.

Meanwhile, God looks down from heaven, and, as He was in Noah’s day, is
filled with righteous indignation (Genesis 6:5–7). Yet even in Noah’s
day, man found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Genesis 6:8). God looked at
Noah, had grace on Noah, and did a work through Noah. So, too, He will
again pour out His wrath in the period called the Tribulation.

Until then, however, what’s the solution for the very genuine wrath God
feels concerning snakelike creatures like you and me? The answer is
propitiation. Why such a big word? Because no smaller word would suffice.
The Greek word translated “propitiation” is hilasterion, which means “to
appease the wrath of.” We often say, “God hates the sin but loves the
sinner.” While that is true, it is at best a shallow understanding
because the distinction between sin and sinner is not so easily made. You
see, I am not only the baby devoured by the python. I am the python. I am
a victim of sin, yes—but I am also its perpetrator.

Sin hurts people. It destroys mankind. It’s cruel, vicious, and wrong.
And my own sin is no less devastating. Thus, God is understandably filled
with righteous indignation, which can only be appeased through
propitiation.

The people of Israel, having been delivered from Egypt, were on their way
to the land promised to them—a land flowing with milk and honey and
wonderful blessings. But en route, they started murmuring and complaining
(Numbers 21:5). The sin of complaining led to suffering in verse 6 as the
people were bitten by poisonous snakes. Suffering led to sorrow in verse
7. Sorrow led to salvation in verses 8, 9, when those who looked upon the
brass serpent were healed. Who was the Brass Serpent? Jesus (John
3:14–16).

Propitiation is God wielding a splitting maul upon the snake, the Brass
Serpent, Jesus Christ—instead of upon me. Am I calling Jesus Christ the
snake? Yes, because He who knew no sin became sin for us (2 Corinthians
5:21) in order that the wrath of the Father over the sin of the world
would be appeased. Instead of smashing a world that is snakelike and
bestial, He turned to His innocent Son and laid upon Him the iniquity of
us all.

Jesus understood this. That’s why in the Garden of Gethsemane, He prayed
with such intensity, “Father, if possible, don’t let Me drink of this
cup” (see Matthew 26:39). Socrates took the cup of hemlock and drank it
bravely. Was Jesus less than Socrates? No. It wasn’t physical death Jesus
feared; it was the wrath of His Father that caused Him to break out in a
bloody sweat (Luke 22:44). Jesus knew what it meant to be the
propitiation, the satisfaction, the appeasement of wrath.

“The Father pouring out His anger upon His innocent Son is a form of
child abuse,” you say. Wait a minute. What is the name of the Son?
Almighty God, Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6). You see, God Himself
became a Man and absorbed the wrath of His own indignation. The mystery
of the Trinity, the mystery of propitiation is that God actually wielded
the splitting maul upon Himself.

Hilasterion, or “propitiation”—the word we don’t hear much today—is used
only five times in the entire New Testament: Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1–2; 1
John 4:10; and Hebrews 9 are four of them. The Hebrews reference, I
believe, is a real key to unlocking this understanding, for in describing
the mercy seat, the author of Hebrews uses the word hilasterion. The
mercy seat, or hilasterion, covered the ark of the covenant. The ark of
the covenant contained the law. Therefore, through the mercy seat, God
says, “I know you’ve broken the law. I know you deserve to be consumed
because of it. But I’m going to put a lid on it through the sacrifice of
My Son. He is the helasmos, the mercy seat, the propitiation. It’s not
something He gives. It’s who He is, for He has come between you and the
broken law. The wrath that I should vent on you was instead placed upon
My Son, who died in your place.”

The fifth use of the word “propitiation” is found in Luke 18. If you feel
offended that I would liken you to a baby-eating python, if you are
repulsed by a God who would became a Man and slaughter Himself to
propitiate His righteous indignation, Luke 18:10–14 is the passage for
you. It is a brief vignette, concerning the prayers of a Pharisee and a
tax collector. Look at verse 13: “God, be merciful to me a sinner.” It
begins with “God” and ends with “sinner.” The middle phrase, “be
merciful”—the verb form of hilasterion—stands between God and sin. Every
one of us is in one of two categories. You’re either the self-righteous
Pharisee, or you’re the tax collector, grateful that Jesus is standing
between God and your sin.

What does a correct understanding of the concept of propitiation do?

Propitiation blows my mind. Propitiation adds an entirely different
dimension to what Paul calls “so great salvation” (Hebrews 2:3). It’s not
just the Father saying, “I’m going to settle mankind’s problem
judicially.” No, He deals with it personally.

Propitiation warms my heart. That God would love me so much He would
actually become the object of His own wrath touches my heart in a
profound way.

Propitiation weakens my knees. Considering the righteous wrath of a
powerful God makes me realize that sin is serious. The Bible says the
beginning of wisdom is to fear God (Proverbs 1:7). And it goes on to say
that to fear God is to hate sin (Proverbs 8:13). The concept of
propitiation makes me question my own view of sin. How do I react when I
see things on the screen or hear unkind words come from my own mouth? If
you’re knowingly sinning today in what you’re doing, or where you’re
going, I encourage you to think through propitiation.

Propitiation tickles my toes. Jacob was in a place he called Luz, or
“separation” After tricking his brother Esau out of his birthright and
blessing, he was in the wilderness running for his life. That night, as
he laid his head on a rock and tried to sleep, God revealed Himself to
him, pouring out a blessing upon him and giving a promise to him. Jacob
woke up and said, “Surely I am in the presence of God and I knew it not.”
And he changed the name of the location from Luz to “Bethel,” or “house
of God.” Then, as we read in Genesis 29:1, Jacob “went on his journey.”
Translated literally this phrase reads, “Jacob had happy feet.”

“I’m a creep. I’m a crook. I’m a criminal,” he said, “but the Lord met
me, has a plan for me, and is going to travel with me. Now I have happy
feet.”

So, too, I say, “Oh, Lord, I know I’m a sinner. But because You absorbed
the anger that should have been poured out upon me, I leave here today
with tickled toes, weakened knees, a warmed heart, and a blown mind!”

May God continue to give us a comprehension of His love through an
understanding of propitiation.

In Jesus’ Name.

[1]

A Topical Study of Romans 3:23–25

(Romans 3:23-25 NASB)

23 for all ?1??a?have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 being justified as a gift ?a?by His grace through ?b?the
redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

25 whom God displayed publicly as ?a?a ?1?propitiation ?2??b?in
His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness,
?3?because in the ?c?forbearance of God He ?d?passed over the sins
previously committed;

[2]

3:25 God set forth Christ Jesus as a propitiation. A propitiation is a
means by which justice is satisfied, God’s wrath is averted, and mercy
can be shown on the basis of an acceptable sacrifice.

Three times in the ?NT? Christ is spoken of as a propitiation. Here in
Romans 3:25 we learn that those who put their faith in Christ find mercy
by virtue of His shed blood. In 1 John 2:2 Christ is described as the
propitiation for our sins, and for those of the whole world. His work is
sufficient for the whole world but is only effective for those who put
their trust in Him. Finally, in 1 John 4:10, God’s love was manifested in
sending His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

The prayer of the publican in Luke 18:13 was literally “God be propitious
to me, the sinner.” He was asking God to show mercy to him by not
requiring him to pay the penalty of his aggravated guilt.

The word propitiation also occurs in Hebrews 2:17: “Therefore, in all
things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful
and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make
propitiation for the sins of the people.” Here the expression “to make
propitiation” means to put away by paying the penalty.

The ?OT? equivalent of the word propitiation is mercy-seat. The
mercy-seat was the lid of the ark. On the Day of Atonement the high
priest sprinkled the mercy- seat with the blood of a sacrificial victim.
By this means errors of the high priest and of the people were atoned for
or covered.

When Christ made propitiation for our sins, He went much further. He not
only covered them but did away with them completely.

Now Paul tells us in 3:25 that God set Christ forth as a propitiation by
His blood, through faith. We are not told to put our faith in His blood;
Christ Himself is the object of our faith. It is only a resurrected and
living Christ Jesus who can save. He is the propitiation. Faith in Him is
the condition by which we avail ourselves of the propitiation. His blood
is the price that was paid.

The finished work of Christ declares God’s righteousness for the
remission of sins that are past. This refers to sins committed before the
death of Christ. From Adam to Christ, God saved those who put their faith
in Him on the basis of whatever revelation He gave them. Abraham, for
example, believed God, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness (Gen.
15:6). But how could God do this righteously? A sinless Substitute had
not been slain. The blood of a perfect Sacrifice had not been shed. In a
word, Christ had not died. The debt had not been paid. God’s righteous
claims had not been met. How then could God save believing sinners in the
OT period?

The answer is that although Christ had not yet died, God knew that He
would die, and He saved men on the basis of the still-future work of
Christ. Even if ?OT? saints didn’t know about Calvary, God knew about it,
and He put all the value of Christ’s work to their account when they
believed God. In a very real sense, ?OT? believers were saved on credit.
They were saved on the basis of a price still to be paid. They looked
forward to Calvary; we look back to it.

That is what Paul means when he says that the propitiation of Christ
declares God’s righteousness because He had passed over the sins that
were previously committed. He is not speaking, as some wrongly think, of
sins which an individual person has committed before his conversion. This
might suggest that the work of Christ took care of sins before the new
birth, but that a man is on his own after that. No, he is dealing with
the seeming leniency of God in apparently overlooking the sins of those
who were saved before the cross. It might seem that God excused those
sins or pretended not to see them. Not so, says Paul. The Lord knew that
Christ would make full expiation, and so He saved men on that basis.

So the ?OT? period was a time of the forbearance of God. For at least
4000 years He held back His judgment on sin. Then in the fullness of time
He sent His Son to be the Sin-bearer. When the Lord Jesus took our sins
upon Himself, God unleashed the full fury of His righteous, holy wrath on
the Son of His love.

[3]

--------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (894).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

1 Or sinned a Rom 3:9 a Rom 4:4f, 16; Eph 2:8 b 1 Cor 1:30; Eph 1:7; Col
1:14; Heb 9:15 a 1 John 2:2; 4:10 1 Or a propitiatory sacrifice 2 Or by b
1 Cor 5:7; Heb 9:14, 28; 1 Pet 1:19; Rev 1:5 3 Lit because of the passing
over of the sins previously committed in the forbearance of God c Rom 2:4
d Acts 14:16; 17:30

[2]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Ro 3:23). LaHabra,
CA: The Lockman Foundation.

NT New Testament OT Old Testament

[3]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible
Commentary : Old and New Testaments (Ro 3:25). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th
2007-07-17 01:20:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
http://76.162.173.93/uit/coa/
LOL. Wishful thinking. Atheism isn't going away chump. Does it burn?
I hope atheism does not go away, as that would make salvation
through Jesus' Propitiation a non event, instead of the miracle it
now is.
Always was a non event.

Klazmon.
Somebody Who Loves You
2007-07-17 01:33:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
http://76.162.173.93/uit/coa/
I hope atheism does not go away, as that would make salvation
through Jesus' Propitiation a non event, instead of the miracle it
now is.
Always was a non event, for atheists, but for believers, a miracle, and
salvation, and everlasting life.
. The Folly of Atheism

(Psalm 53 NASB)

. Folly and Wickedness of Men.

For the choir director; according to ?†?Mahalath. A ?•?Maskil of David.

1 ?a?The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God,”
They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice;
?b?There is no one who does good.

2 God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there is ?a?anyone who ?1?understands, Who ?b?seeks after God.

3 ?a?Every one of them has turned aside; together they have
become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

4 Have the workers of wickedness ?a?no knowledge,
Who eat up My people as though they ate bread
And have not called upon God?

5 There they were in great ?1?fear ?a?where no ?1?fear had been;
For God ?b?scattered the bones of ?2?him who encamped against you;
You ?c?put them to shame, because ?d?God had rejected them.

6 Oh, that ?a?the salvation of Israel ?1?would come out of Zion!
When God ?2?restores His captive people, ?3?Let Jacob rejoice, let Israel
be glad.

[1]

. Psalm 53: The Folly of Atheism

The main difference between Psalm 14 and this one is that the name of God
is changed from Jehovah (or Yahweh) to Elohim.? 39 In Psalm 14 the fool
denies the existence of the covenant-keeping God (Jehovah, Lord) who is
deeply interested and involved in the welfare of His people. Here the fool
denies the existence of an almighty, sovereign God (Elohim) who sustains
and governs the universe.

God can be denied in both senses: some deny that the Creator has any
special interest in any particular race or group of men; others repudiate
any possibility of there being a God at all (Daily Notes of the Scripture
Union).

53:1 The fool is not necessarily a dunce or stupid. He may be
intellectually brilliant as far as contemporary education is concerned,
but he does not want to face the evidence as to the person, power and
providence of God. He is willfully ignorant. “The Hebrew word has in it
the idea of a malicious refusal to acknowledge the truth.”

Atheism is linked with depravity and degradation, sometimes as cause,
sometimes as effect. Therefore it is not surprising that those who say
“There is no Elohim” are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity. There is none
of them who does good.

53:2 Now the subject seems to glide from atheists in particular to mankind
in general. Paul quotes snatches from these verses in Romans 3 to
establish the total depravity of all mankind. The indictment is true, of
course. As God looks down from heaven upon the race of men, He cannot find
one who, left to himself, would have the wisdom to fear the Lord. Apart
from the prior ministry of the Holy Spirit, no one would seek God.

53:3 They have all turned aside from the living God. They have all become
depraved. Not one does good in the sense of something that can gain favor
or merit with the Lord.

53:4, 5 Again, there seems to be a switch to a particular class of
sinners, namely, those apostates who persecute God’s people. How can they
be so short-sighted? They are cruel and prayerless. They think no more of
destroying the faithful remnant than of eating bread. And they never feel
the need of speaking to God in prayer. They seem completely insensible to
the fact that one day they will be seized with unprecedented terror. God
will scatter the bones of those who wage war against His loyal followers.

53:6 In the last verse, David prays for the coming of the Messiah. He is
the Deliverer who will come out of Zion (Rom. 11:26) and save all
believing Israel. In that day Israel will be restored, Jacob will rejoice
and Israel will be glad.

[2]

Evolutionism can be found at the very root of atheism, communism,
relativism and every other form of anti-Christian practice. Dangerous and
deadly social problems are deeply rooted in the purposelessness of
materialistic evolutionism: suicide, homosexuality, promiscuity, abortion
and chemical abuse—just to name the most obvious. Evolutionism has played
a major part in influencing the way humans think of themselves. Problems
of low self-esteem, animalistic behavior and depression result from the
feeling of meaninglessness in life—that belief in evolution—or lack of
belief in God—brings. Evolutionism attacks God’s omniscience. If the
universe, life and all creatures are comprised of things evolved through
chance and error in genetic transmutations, then there is no God. Of all
of the deadly fruit that evolutionism has produced, racism is one of the
most toxic. The ABCs of evolutionism breed racism.

[3]

Atheism’s rejection of God appeals to people who wish to avoid judgment
for their sinful lifestyle.

?Romans 1:18–23? makes clear that the matter of rejecting God is willful
and due to the love of sin:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and
unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because
that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it
evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible
attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen,
being understood through what has been made, so that they are without
excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or
give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their
foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and
exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of
corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling
creatures.

Into the confusion caused by conflicting philosophies and idolatry, Paul
spoke forcefully the truth that the one true God not only exists but can
also be known: What therefore you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to
you. That God can be known is the clear teaching of the Bible (?Deut.
4:35?; ?1 Kings 8:43?; ?1 Chron. 28:9?; ?Ps. 9:10?; ?Jer. 9:24?; ?24:7?;
?31:34?; ?John 17:3?). This God who can be known is the believer’s message
of hope to the lost world.

[4]

The agnostic or atheist may be using his agnosticism or atheism as a
crutch to avoid the responsibility of God’s demands.

The God of the Bible is awesome and a threat to mankind. A God who is
all-powerful, all-knowing, righteous, holy, and just, and who is going to
judge the world for its sin, is an extremely imposing figure. Thus it is
only fair to point out that some need the crutch of denying God’s
existence in order to live their lives as they please without fear of
judgment.

Aldous Huxley articulated this in Ends and Means: "For myself, the
philosophy of meaningless was essentially an instrument of liberation,
sexual and political" (Ends and Means, p. 270 ff.).

The truth of the Christian faith is not based upon psychological needs for
or against God. Yes, it is possible that Christianity could have started
because people need something to lean on, but the question is not how it
could have started but how it did start.

We again are brought back to the real issue, which is the person of Jesus
Christ. Does mankind need to lean on Him, or can we lean on something
else?

Jesus made the issue very clear, "Therefore whosoever heareth these
sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which
built his house upon a rock: and the rain descended, and the floods came,
and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was
founded upon a rock.

"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not,
shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat
upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew
7:24–27, KJV).

One could also state it this way. A crutch presupposes two things: (1)
that there is a disease, sickness, or hurt, and (2) that a person has been
given some type of a remedy (this is why he has the crutch).

Two questions immediately arise. First, what is this disease? Is it real
or imagined? And second, is the remedy the correct one for the disease?

With Christianity, God clearly states that the disease is sin, and that
the disease is real. It is not a psychological, imaginary hand-up in need
of a religious fix as Marx would propound. Rather, the remedy instead of
being a religious crutch, is a relationship with Jesus Christ.

Therefore, Christianity in one sense is a crutch. But it is more than a
crutch; it is the sure foundation, the truth of life.

If Jesus Christ be God and died on the cross for our sins and created us
to be in fellowship with God the Father through Him, then to call Him a
crutch would be like a light bulb saying to an electrical socket, "You are
my crutch." As a light bulb was created to function properly when inserted
into the socket, so we have been created to function properly in a
personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

[5]

. Marvin L. Lubenow writes:

The real issue in the creation/evolution debate is not the existence of
God. The real issue is the nature of God. To think of evolution as
basically atheistic is to misunderstand the uniqueness of evolution.
Evolution was not designed as a general attack against theism. It was
designed as a specific attack against the God of the Bible, and the God of
the Bible is clearly revealed through the doctrine of creation. Obviously,
if a person is an atheist, it would be normal for him to also be an
evolutionist. But evolution is as comfortable with theism as it is with
atheism. An evolutionist is perfectly free to choose any god he wishes, as
long as it is not the God of the Bible. The gods allowed by evolution are
private, subjective, and artificial. They bother no one and make no
absolute ethical demands. However, the God of the Bible is the Creator,
Sustainer, Savior, and Judge. All are responsible to him. He has an agenda
that conflicts with that of sinful humans. For man to be created in the
image of God is very awesome. For God to be created in the image of man is
very comfortable.?8?

To put it simply, evolution was invented in order to eliminate the God of
Genesis and thereby to oust the Lawgiver and obliterate the inviolability
of His law. Evolution is simply the latest means our fallen race has
devised in order to suppress our innate knowledge and the biblical
testimony that there is a God and that we are accountable to Him (cf.
Romans 1:28). By embracing evolution, modern society aims to do away with
morality, responsibility, and guilt. Society has embraced evolution with
such enthusiasm because people imagine that it eliminates the Judge and
leaves them free to do whatever they want without guilt and without
consequences.

[6]

Either as cause or consequence, atheism and agnosticism are linked with a
corrupt life. Barnes writes:

The belief that there is no God is commonly founded on the desire to lead
a wicked life, or is embraced by those who in fact live such a life, with
a desire to sustain themselves in their depravity and to avoid the fear of
future retribution.? 15

[7]

Now when you get to the time of David, you meet atheists, and there were a
great many atheists by that time. David labels them, though. He says,
“?The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God?” (Psalm 14:1). The
word fool in the Hebrew means “?insane.?” The insane, the nutty
individual, is the one who is the atheist. Of course, he may be a Ph.D. in
a university, but he’s a nutty individual. The Bible says he is insane. It
is insane for a man to say there is no God. A friend of mine had a
marvelous ministry with atheists. He was in a crowd one day where a
big-mouthed fellow was saying, “?I do not believe there is a God. I think
that when man dies, he’s just like a dog. He dies and that’s it.?” This
friend of mine, a very courteous man, said, “?Did I understand you to say
that you don’t believe there is a God??”

“?Yes.?”

“?Are you an atheist??”

“?Yes.?”

“?Well, I have a question to ask you. The Bible says that the fool, the
insane, is the one who says there is no God. Now either you were insincere
when you made the statement, you didn’t really mean it, or else you’re
insane. Would you tell me which way it is??”

It has to be one way or the other when a man says there is no God. But,
you see, we’ve come a long way since David’s day!

[8]

Atheists claim that there is no God. They contend that there is no God in
the world (as pantheism holds) and there is no God beyond the world (as
deism claims). Furthermore, there is no God who is actually both in the
world and beyond the world as theism claims, nor is there any
panentheistic God beyond the world who is related to the world as a mind
to body. There is no God of any kind, anywhere.

Of course, atheism is not merely a negative position. Most atheists do not
view themselves as antitheists but simply nontheists. As nontheists,
atheists offer a positive view of their own which they may call humanism,
materialism, naturalism, or positivism. Since we are primarily concerned
here with the question of whether there is a God and, if so, what kind of
God he is, we will consider the arguments and reasons given by selected
major atheists as to why they believe there is no God. Special concern
will be given as to why they believe there is no theistic God. In this
context it will be necessary to discuss the negative emphasis of atheism
as a world view denying the existence of God.

[9]

Atheism comes in many varieties. The term atheism covers a widely
divergent group of thinkers. There are traditional atheists who believe
that there never was, is, or will be a God (Jean-Paul Sartre is an
example).1 Then there is the mythological atheist like Nietzsche,2 who
believed that the God-myth was once alive, that is, it was a model men
believed and lived by, but that this myth died and is no longer workable.
Some years ago Thomas Altizer popularized another form of atheism which
may be called dialectical atheism.3 This view affirms the paradox that God
was once really alive but that he died in the incarnation and crucifixion
of Christ and that it has taken until modern times to realize that this is
so. Finally, there is what may be called semantical or linguistical
atheism (as in Paul Van Buren),4 which claims that God-talk is dead, that
is, that there is no cognitive meaning to religious language.

Since we are concerned here with metaphysical atheism, we will discuss
primarily the forms that provide some arguments denying that there is
really a God in and/or beyond the world now. Although it is a serious
thing to a believer in God to deny that he can talk meaningfully about
God, semantical atheism as such does not involve any denial that there may
be a God there who can somehow be felt or experienced. This view at least
leaves the door open to the fact that God exists and that he can in some
way be experienced. Hence, this view is not really metaphysical atheism.

Not all atheists claim knock-down-and-drag-out arguments against God. Like
theists, they claim varying degrees of certitude ranging from absolute
certainty to low degrees of probability. Many of the arguments, then, are
not offered as disproofs of God but merely as evidence against the
existence of a God. Other arguments are considered by their proponents as
definite disproofs of God. We will consider both types, attempting to put
the arguments in the strongest form possible.

Another important distinction to keep in mind is that atheism makes two
argumentative moves. First, it offers objections to the supposed grounds
upon which others believe in God. Since these arguments do not attempt to
disprove God but simply to refute the grounds upon which some men believe
in God, they will be considered in the next chapter as objections to
theism. Here we will consider only attempts to prove there is no God. The
following summary will indicate the major kinds of arguments for atheism
and the direction in which they go.

[10]


. Summary and Conclusion

Atheism provides some valuable correctives to and modifications of theism.
Many of its arguments either correct misconceptions some theists have of
God or of his relation to the world or else they expose contradictory
theistic concepts. Atheists have been active as well in contributing to
humanistic causes and earnest in scientific endeavors.

However, as a total world view atheism does not measure up. First, its
arguments are invalid and often self-defeating. Second, many atheistic
arguments are really reversible into reasons for believing in God.
Finally, atheism provides no solution to basic metaphysical questions
regarding the existence of the universe or the origin of personality and
the actualization of the world process. Atheists must believe that
something comes from nothing, that potentials actualize themselves, and
that matter generated mind. It seems much more reasonable to believe in a
God who made something where there was nothing, who actualized the
potentials that could not actualize themselves, and whose Mind formed
matter.

[11]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

† I.e. sickness, a sad tone

• Possibly, Contemplative, or Didactic, or Skillful Psalm

a Ps 10:4; 14:1–7; 53:1–6

b Rom 3:10

a Rom 3:11

1 Or acts wisely

b 2 Chr 15:2

a Rom 3:12

a Jer 4:22

1 Or dread

a Lev 26:17, 36; Prov 28:1

b Ps 141:7; Jer 8:1, 2; Ezek 6:5

2 Or possibly, those

c Ps 44:7

d 2 Kin 17:20; Jer 6:30; Lam 5:22

a Ps 14:7

1 Lit would be

2 Or restores the fortunes of His people

3 Or Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad

[1]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Ps 53:1-6). LaHabra,
CA: The Lockman Foundation.

? 39 (53:Intro) In Psalm 14 the name Jehovah is used four time and Elohim
three times. Here the name Elohim is found seven times.

[2]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary
: Old and New Testaments (Ps 53:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

[3]Lindsay, D. G. (1999, c1995). The ABC's of evolutionism : Ape-man,
batman, catwoman, and other evolutionary fantasies (the rest of the
stories). Dallas, TX: Christ for the Nations.

[4]MacArthur, J. (1994, c1996). Acts (326). Chicago: Moody Press.

[5]McDowell, J., & Stewart, D. D. (1993). Answers to tough questions.
Originally published: San Bernardino, Calif. : Here's Life Publishers,
c1980. Nashville: T. Nelson Publishers.

8 Marvin L. Lubenow, Bones of Contention: A Creationist Assesment of Human
Fossils (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1992), 188-89.

[6]MacArthur, J. (2001). The battle for the beginning : The Bible on
creation and the fall of Adam (24). Nashville, TN: W Pub. Group.

? 15 (14:1) Barnes, Psalms, I:114.

[7]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary
: Old and New Testaments (Ps 14:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

[8]McGee, J. V. (2001, c1988). The best of J. Vernon McGee : A collection
of his best-loved sermons, volume 1 (electronic ed.) (55). Nashville:
Thomas Nelson Publishers.

[9]Geisler, N. L. (1976). Christian apologetics. Includes index. (215).
Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.

1 See Jean-Paul Sartre, Being and Nothingness, pt. Four.

2 See Friedrich Nietzsche, Gay Science.

3 Thomas Altizer, The Gospel of Christian Atheism.

4 Paul Van Buren, The Secular Meaning of the Gospel.

[10]Geisler, N. L. (1976). Christian apologetics. Includes index. (215).
Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.

[11]Geisler, N. L. (1976). Christian apologetics. Includes index. (234).
Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.
Irv Hyatt
2007-07-17 14:01:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
NICE 1 WHERE DID YOU FIND THAT SITE FROM SEE YOU CAN
FIND THE TRUTH IF YOU WANT
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
http://76.162.173.93/uit/coa/
LOL. Wishful thinking. Atheism isn't going away chump. Does it burn?
aamof Atheism is becoming more fashionable, so many coming out of the
closet.
Post by Llanzlan Klazmon the 15th
Klazmon.
"the bird"
2007-07-17 14:12:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
http://76.162.173.93/uit/coa/
Atheism is becoming more fashionable, so many coming out of the closet.
. What is NOT True!

I'll be going to heaven anyways.


I never needed religion. I'm a very strong sensible person. You would put
off what I consider to be lucky, to your god. I've had a really hard life,
nobody has ever been there for me. In the last 2 years I've had 3 cats die,
my oldest sister died, my mother died, and one of my best friends died and
my boyfriend died. He bought me all my groceries, gasoline, cookware,
utensils, everything I ever needed, and I never asked for any of it. I
really was born a good person, and I guess people just see that because
whenever I'm in a situation where I have no place at all to get money, or
because all of my friends live in other states, I've never had any family
support at all. My father died when I was 15 and my mother was a dishonest,
selfish woman. She leaned on me always and steered me away from my
ambitions. I was always so trusting I just always did what she wanted me to
do. She didn't care about me at all. She didn't know what university I went
to, what degrees I have, honor societies I belong to, all the volunteering
I've done, etc. I have next to nothing and yet all on my own I got outside
help. I found the only person in my family that I ever loved, a cousin who
lives in Texas, and she's just the sweetest most loving person ever. Hard
to believe she came from our demented family. My father was the only person
in my life who was a well cultured, intelligent, honest and loving person.
He taught me how important education is, playing music, helping other
people, etc. I carry him in me in my life.

I will never believe in any god, it was never in my life growing up and I
don't feel the need have faith to be a good person. If it should turn out
that there is a heaven or hell, I would be going to heaven anyways.

I'm glad to hear how much help your father has been to you, and I'm very
sorry for the things you've had to go through.

One thing I felt I should mention. It's not how good we are compared to
everyone else. It's are we good enough to get into heaven.


Here's how you can ~know~ you are going to heaven, if you are ~sincere~. It
is in God's Word, the Bible, and it's very easy to know.


*** Are we good enough to get to heaven?


It's not how good we are compared to everyone else. It's are we good enough
to get into heaven, and those are two separate unrelated issues. We do not
get to heaven based on our own goodness or good works.


Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


It doesn't matter how good we are compared to others, it's how good we are
compared to God.


Check out this really quick set of questions on comparing how good we are to
the Law of God.


http://www.juststopandthink.com/goodpersontest.php


Ever violate any of these laws even once? (The website gives more
information at the end. It's really good at giving a quick explanation of
each)


- You shall have no other gods before Me.


Have you always put God first in your life? Jesus said to love God with all
your heart, mind, soul, and strength – so much, that your love for your
parents, brothers and sisters, friends, and even your own life is like
hatred compared to your love for and devotion to God, (Luke 14:26).


Have you ever failed to put Him first in your life?


- You shall not make for yourself any idol.


Who is God to you? Is he only a god of love and mercy who would never judge
anyone and never cast anyone into Hell? If that’s your god, then you’re
right. Your god couldn’t cast anyone into Hell because he doesn’t exist. He’s
a figment of your imagination. You’ve created a god in your own mind that
you’re more comfortable with. You may call it your “personal belief,” but
God calls it idolatry. The Bible warns that idolaters will not inherit the
Kingdom of Heaven, (Ephesians 5:5).


- You shall not take the name of God in vain.


Have you ever used God’s name as a curse word? If you have, you’ve taken the
Holy name of God – who gave you your life, your family, and everything
precious to you – and used it as a filthy, four-letter word. Hitler’s name
wasn’t even despised to be used as a curse word! If you have used God’s Holy
name in that manner, you are a blasphemer and the Bible says, “God will not
hold him guiltless who takes the name of the Lord in vain,” (Exodus 20:7).


Have you ever broken this Commandment?


- Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy


God commands that we set aside one day in seven.


Have you ever been guilty of breaking this Commandment?


- Honor your mother and father.


Have you always honored your parents in a way that’s pleasing in the sight
of God? Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. You may have
forgotten them, but God hasn’t.


- You shall not murder.


Jesus warned, “Whoever is angry with his brother without cause, is in danger
of judgment,” (Matthew 5:22) and the Bible says, “He who hates his brother
is a murderer,” (1 John 3:15). God sees hatred in the heart to be as wicked
as murder. We can violate His law by attitude and intent.


- You shall not commit adultery.


Jesus warned, “You have heard…’You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to
you that whoever looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed
adultery with her in his heart,” (Matthew 5:28). Have you ever looked at
another person with lust? The Bible says that adulterers and fornicators
(those who have sex before marriage) will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven (1
Corinthians 6:9).


- You shall not steal.


Have you ever stolen anything (even if it was something small)? The value of
the thing stolen doesn’t matter; petty theft is still theft. Have you ever
taken anything that belonged to someone else (from the office, school,
parents, etc.)? If you have, that makes you a thief.


- You shall not lie.


Have you ever told a lie? Then you are a liar. How many murders do you have
to commit to be a murderer? Just one. If you have told even one lie, that
makes you a liar. The Bible warns that all liars will have their part in the
Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). You may not think deceitfulness is a serious
sin, but God does.


- You shall not covet.


This means we should never desire anything that belongs
to another person. Not their house, nor their car, nor their money,nor their
wife, nor their husband, nor their lifestyle, nor anything that belongs to
your neighbor. Have you ever broken this Commandment?


Have you kept every one of those laws 100% of the time your entire life? If
not (and no one has), you are a sinner, and are wicked before God. The fact
is, if we break God's law, we're a sinner. And the fact is we are all
sinners, even the very best of us.


That includes me and every single person who preaches God's Word.


Romans 3:10
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:


Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


*** So how does God feel about us sinning against Him?


It's never a question of how good we are compared to everyone else. First,
realize and admit you are a sinner (and realize that the punishment for
sinning against our holy and righteous God is death). God finds this
wickedness, and His wrath abides on those who are wicked.


John 3:36
36 .. and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but
the wrath of God abideth on him.


Until we are saved we are enemies with God


Romans 5:10
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by
the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his
life.


Why? Because we are wicked sinners. It's wickedness to God, and being an
unrepentant sinner is punished by death.


Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is
eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


But to get saved from this, if we sincerely want to be saved, is easy
indeed, as Jesus paid it all!


What must you do?


First of all we must realize and ~admit~ we are sinners, that we have broken
God's law, and sinned against Him and sincerely ~repent~ from our sins. Pray
to God sincere admittance and repentance (apology, remorsefulness) for your
sins against God.


Mark 1:15
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is
at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Next, believe that Jesus Christ bore the punishment for your sins on the
cross and rose from the dead.


Romans 10:9-10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and
shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou
shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and
with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he
that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the
Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.


Lastly, call on the Lord Jesus Christ to save you.


Romans 10:13
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be
saved.


John 1:12
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:




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But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there
will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in
destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and
will bring swift destruction on themselves (2 Peter 2:1).

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bob young
2007-07-18 09:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by quibbler
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
NICE 1 WHERE DID YOU FIND THAT SITE FROM SEE YOU CAN
FIND THE TRUTH IF YOU WANT
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
The problem is that even you don't believe your propaganda. Actually,
atheism is increasing, all over the world, even with the fracturing of
the soviet union.
Atheism will disappear when the last man made imaginary god disappears.

- no more gods, no more atheists [but it won't happen in my lifetime, or yours]
UR Welcome!
2007-07-18 13:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob young
Post by quibbler
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
The problem is that even you don't believe your propaganda. Actually,
atheism is increasing, all over the world, even with the fracturing of
the soviet union.
Atheism will disappear when the last man made imaginary god disappears.
- no more gods, no more atheists [but it won't happen in my lifetime, or yours]
Nope!

THE EFFECTS OF THE FALL

We do not know how long it was before Adam exercised his will contrary to
the will of God, thus breaking, immediately and completely, the fellowship
which had existed between Adam and God. Sin severed the creature from
fellowship with the Creator! And the effects of Adam's sin are
far-reaching. In the first chapter of the book of Romans, the Apostle Paul
shows the effects of Adam's sin. First of all, the apostle shows that the
intellect of man was darkened by the fall, so that man in his intellect
could not know God. Romans 1:19-20 states, "That which may be known of God
is manifest in them [that is, among them]; for God hath shewed it unto
them. For the invisible things of him [that is, about God] from the
creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things
that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are
without excuse." From these verses we learn that creation is a revelation
of the wisdom of God, and that nature is an open book in which all men may
see two things: God's eternal power, and His Godhood or deity. But even
though men were able, through that revelation, to know something of God,
how did they respond? "When they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations [that is,
their thought processes], and their foolish heart [that is, their seat of
perception], was darkened" (Rom. 1:21). In Ephesians 4:17 the same truth
is affirmed: "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye
henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity [or, emptiness]
of their mind, having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the
life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the
blindness of their heart." There, the apostle affirms again what he taught
in Romans 1, that the heart of the natural man is darkened because of sin.
The apostle did not say that the mind is blindfolded, but rather, blinded.
If one has been blindfolded, all he needs to do is to remove the blindfold
and he will see. But Paul says that men have been blinded by sin. They no
longer have the capacity to see. The first great result then of Adam's sin
is that man's intellect was darkened.

Not only was man's intellect darkened but his emotional capacity was
degraded. "God . gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their
own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed
the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more
than the Creator, who is blessed for ever, Amen. For this cause, God gave
them up to vile affections" (Rom. 1:24-26a). In Ephesians 4:19 we read:
"Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to
work all uncleanness with greediness." It is not that man lost his
emotional capacity, but his emotional capacity was so perverted and
prostituted that it cannot be directed Godward. Thus the natural man
cannot experience fellowship between his heart and the heart of God.

Romans 1 closes by showing us another result of Adam's fall: the will of
man was deadened Godward. In verse 32 we learn that men, "knowing the
judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death,
not only do the same [notice it, do the same], but have pleasure in them
that do them." In Romans 7:18 Paul says, "I know that in me (that is, in
my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how
to perform that which is good I find not." Natural man is marked by the
deadness of his will toward God. In Romans 8:7, the apostle says, "The
carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of
God, neither indeed can be." In Galatians 5:17 the apostle again adds his
testimony, "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against
the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot
do the things that ye would." When you put these passages together, you
find that Paul consistently teaches that while a man still has a will, and
can choose, his will is a will that is enslaved to sin, a will that cannot
and will not exercise itself Godward, a will that wills only that which is
iniquitous.

Because of the fall of Adam, man has been brought under judgment and under
a curse, but he still continues to be a man. He did not lose his
personality; he has not been degraded to the level of an animal. But it is
impossible for man to exercise his God-given capacities Godward. The
unsaved man has an intellect, but it has been darkened and he cannot know
God; he has an emotional capacity, but it has been degraded, and he cannot
love God; he has a will that has been deadened toward God and he cannot
and will not obey God. Even though God created us for fellowship with
Himself, so that He might be glorified through our fellowship with Him,
that purpose is unattainable in the natural man. Man still bears the image
of God and possesses the component parts of personality, yet he has been
so bound and enslaved that he cannot exercise these parts of His
personality Godward to the glory of God.

[1]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]Pentecost, J. D. (2001). Designed to be like Him : Understanding God's
plan for fellowship, conduct, conflict, and maturity. Originally
published: [Chicago, Ill.] : Moody, 1966.; Includes index. (28). Grand
Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications.
bob young
2007-07-19 04:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by UR Welcome!
Post by bob young
Post by quibbler
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
The problem is that even you don't believe your propaganda. Actually,
atheism is increasing, all over the world, even with the fracturing of
the soviet union.
Atheism will disappear when the last man made imaginary god disappears.
- no more gods, no more atheists [but it won't happen in my lifetime, or yours]
Nope!
THE EFFECTS OF THE FALL
Must be, as atheists constantly wonder how modern intelligent humans still cling to mythology full of
errors and contradictions and imagine that it proves something !

Groan
Post by UR Welcome!
We do not know how long it was before Adam exercised his will contrary to
the will of God, thus breaking, immediately and completely, the fellowship
which had existed between Adam and God. Sin severed the creature from
fellowship with the Creator! And the effects of Adam's sin are
far-reaching. In the first chapter of the book of Romans, the Apostle Paul
shows the effects of Adam's sin. First of all, the apostle shows that the
intellect of man was darkened by the fall, so that man in his intellect
could not know God. Romans 1:19-20 states, "That which may be known of God
is manifest in them [that is, among them]; for God hath shewed it unto
them. For the invisible things of him [that is, about God] from the
creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things
that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are
without excuse." From these verses we learn that creation is a revelation
of the wisdom of God, and that nature is an open book in which all men may
see two things: God's eternal power, and His Godhood or deity. But even
though men were able, through that revelation, to know something of God,
how did they respond? "When they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations [that is,
their thought processes], and their foolish heart [that is, their seat of
perception], was darkened" (Rom. 1:21). In Ephesians 4:17 the same truth
is affirmed: "This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye
henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity [or, emptiness]
of their mind, having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the
life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the
blindness of their heart." There, the apostle affirms again what he taught
in Romans 1, that the heart of the natural man is darkened because of sin.
The apostle did not say that the mind is blindfolded, but rather, blinded.
If one has been blindfolded, all he needs to do is to remove the blindfold
and he will see. But Paul says that men have been blinded by sin. They no
longer have the capacity to see. The first great result then of Adam's sin
is that man's intellect was darkened.
Not only was man's intellect darkened but his emotional capacity was
degraded. "God . gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their
own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed
the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more
than the Creator, who is blessed for ever, Amen. For this cause, God gave
"Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to
work all uncleanness with greediness." It is not that man lost his
emotional capacity, but his emotional capacity was so perverted and
prostituted that it cannot be directed Godward. Thus the natural man
cannot experience fellowship between his heart and the heart of God.
Romans 1 closes by showing us another result of Adam's fall: the will of
man was deadened Godward. In verse 32 we learn that men, "knowing the
judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death,
not only do the same [notice it, do the same], but have pleasure in them
that do them." In Romans 7:18 Paul says, "I know that in me (that is, in
my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how
to perform that which is good I find not." Natural man is marked by the
deadness of his will toward God. In Romans 8:7, the apostle says, "The
carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of
God, neither indeed can be." In Galatians 5:17 the apostle again adds his
testimony, "The flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against
the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot
do the things that ye would." When you put these passages together, you
find that Paul consistently teaches that while a man still has a will, and
can choose, his will is a will that is enslaved to sin, a will that cannot
and will not exercise itself Godward, a will that wills only that which is
iniquitous.
Because of the fall of Adam, man has been brought under judgment and under
a curse, but he still continues to be a man. He did not lose his
personality; he has not been degraded to the level of an animal. But it is
impossible for man to exercise his God-given capacities Godward. The
unsaved man has an intellect, but it has been darkened and he cannot know
God; he has an emotional capacity, but it has been degraded, and he cannot
love God; he has a will that has been deadened toward God and he cannot
and will not obey God. Even though God created us for fellowship with
Himself, so that He might be glorified through our fellowship with Him,
that purpose is unattainable in the natural man. Man still bears the image
of God and possesses the component parts of personality, yet he has been
so bound and enslaved that he cannot exercise these parts of His
personality Godward to the glory of God.
[1]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1]Pentecost, J. D. (2001). Designed to be like Him : Understanding God's
plan for fellowship, conduct, conflict, and maturity. Originally
published: [Chicago, Ill.] : Moody, 1966.; Includes index. (28). Grand
Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications.
bob young
2007-07-18 09:15:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
NICE 1 WHERE DID YOU FIND THAT SITE FROM SEE YOU CAN
FIND THE TRUTH IF YOU WANT
. The Total Collapse (Death) Of Atheism
http://76.162.173.93/uit/coa/
. Biblical Christian Worldview
http://76.162.173.93/uit/bcw/bcw.wmv
. How Should We Then Live?
. http://76.162.173.93/members/hswtl.html
. login: guest password: guest
"The best way to drive out the devil, if he will
not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and
flout him, for he cannot bear scorn."
Seen that bad ole' devil have yer?

What does he look like?

The fact is your devil is as nefarious as your god
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
. Wisdom
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1 Corinthians 1:18-25 NASB)
The Wisdom of God
18 For the word of the cross is ?a?foolishness to ?b?those who ?1?are
perishing, but to us who ?2?are being saved it is ?c?the power of God.
19 For it is written,
"?a?I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside."
20 ?a?Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater
of ?b?this age? Has not God ?c?made foolish the wisdom of ?d?the world?
21 For since in the wisdom of God ?a?the world through its wisdom did
not come to know God, ?b?God was well-pleased through the
?c?foolishness of the ?1?message preached to ?d?save those who believe.
22 For indeed ?a?Jews ask for ?1?signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23 but we preach ?1??a?Christ crucified, ?b?to Jews a stumbling block
and to Gentiles ?c?foolishness,
24 but to those who are ?a?the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ
?b?the power of God and ?c?the wisdom of God.
25 Because the ?a?foolishness of God is wiser than men, and ?b?the
weakness of God is stronger than men.
[1]
The cross divides men. The cross divides the saved from the unsaved, but it
doesn't divide the saved people. It should unite them, you see. A Dutch artist
painted a picture called "The Last Judgment." It depicts the throne of God, and
away from that throne the lost are falling into space. And as they fall, they cling
together. This is an accurate picture of the one world that men are working for
today. The lost want to come together in one great unity, and they are going to
accomplish a great union in the last days. But cutting across the grain of the
ecumenical environment and the contemporary thought is the gospel of Christ.
Lord Jesus called Himself a divider of men, and the dividing line is His cross.
The preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto the saved
person it is the power of God.
Paul makes it very clear that his method was not in the wisdom of the words of
the world, not in the method of dialectics of divisions or differences or opinions
or theories, but he just presented the cross of Christ. That brought about a unity
of those who were saved. To those who perish, the cross of Christ is
foolishness; but to the saved man it becomes the power of God. The cross of
Christ divides the world, but it does not divide the church.
[2]
1 Corinthians 1:18 (a)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness.
The literal translation would more correctly render this verse: "For the
preaching of the Cross is to them that are perishing foolishness." When we tell
people that Jesus loves them, died in place of them, and offers a new life to
them, those who are perishing just don't get it because to deny one's self and
take up the Cross seems foolish to them.
[3]
1 Corinthians 1:18 (b)
.but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Again, a more literal rendering of this verse would be ".but unto us which are
being saved, it is the power of God." Salvation is, in a sense, progressive.
When you opened your heart to Jesus Christ, you were saved from the penalty
of sin. Day by day, we're saved from the power of sin. And when Jesus comes
to take us to heaven, we'll be saved from the presence of sin. The message of
the Cross gives hope when I have failed because Jesus' blood cleanses me
from all sin. It also gives direction to the way I live, for it is only when I deny
myself and take up the Cross that I find life (Matthew 10:38, 39).
1:18 The message (logos) of the Cross, in contrast to the speech (logos) of
human wisdom (v. 17), has the Cross as its central theme. When people hear it,
it produces opposite effects in those who are on the way to perdition and in
those on the way to glory. Paul contrasted foolishness and weakness with
wisdom and power (cf. Rom. 1:16).
"What would you think if a woman came to work wearing earrings stamped
with an image of the mushroom cloud of the atomic bomb dropped over
Hiroshima?
"What would you think of a church building adorned with a fresco of the
massed graves at Auschwitz? . . .
"The same sort of shocking horror was associated with cross and crucifixion in
the first century."30
[4]
1 Corinthians 1:19, 20
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing
the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe?
where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of
this world?
"Where are the debaters, scribes, and thinkers? Where are the psychiatrists
and psychologists?" asks Paul. "What have they done for your culture? Hasn't
God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"
We can either become depressed over the foolish political and judicial
decisions of our leaders-or we can realize they are exactly what God planned
to do all along. We won't be upset if we realize that even the foolishness of the
world is part of God's plan.
1:20 The first three questions in this verse recall similar questions that Isaiah
voiced when the Assyrians' plans to destroy Jerusalem fell through (Isa. 33:18;
cf. Job 12:17; Isa. 19:12). Paul's references to the age (Gr. aion) and the world
(kosmos) clarify that he was speaking of purely natural wisdom in contrast to
the wisdom that God has revealed. God's wisdom centers on the Cross.
"In first-century Corinth, 'wisdom' was not understood to be practical skill in
living under the fear of the Lord (as it frequently is in Proverbs), nor was it
perceived to be some combination of intuition, insight, and people smarts (as it
frequently is today in the West). Rather, wisdom was a public philosophy, a
well-articulated world-view that made sense of life and ordered the choices,
values, and priorities of those who adopted it. The 'wise man,' then, was
someone who adopted and defended one of the many competing public world-
views. Those who were 'wise' in this sense might have been Epicureans or
Stoics or Sophists or Platonists, but they had this in common: they claimed to
be able to 'make sense' out of life and death and the universe."31
[5]
S. Lewis Johnson in The Wycliffe Bible Commentary notes that in context these
"words are God's denouncement of the policy of the 'wise' in Judah in seeking
an alliance with Egypt when threatened by Sennacherib."? 2 How true it is that
God delights to accomplish His purposes in ways that seem foolish to men.
How often He uses methods that the wise of this world would ridicule, yet they
achieve the desired results with wonderful accuracy and efficiency. For
example, man's wisdom assures him that he can earn or merit his own salvation.
The gospel sets aside all man's efforts to save himself and presents Christ as the
only way to God.
[6]
1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it
pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
People have their hope restored in the big picture of eternity through that which
the world deems foolish: the preaching of the Word. Paul doesn't say that
people are saved by the preaching of foolishness. You'll know the difference
between the preaching that is the power of God and the preaching of
foolishness by one simple rule of thumb: Does what is being said match up with
the Scriptures? Is it seen specifically in the life of Jesus? Is it practiced
throughout the Book of Acts? Is it taught by Paul in the Epistles? In other
words, is it consistent with the entire New Testament?
Every true teaching, doctrine, and practice is seen in the life of Jesus, practiced
in the Book of Acts, and taught by Paul in the Epistles. Therefore, if a teacher
of preacher suggests something that doesn't match up in all those areas, reject
it. Because there is enough in the Word to keep us busy for every day of our
lives, there is no need to supplement it with deviant doctrine or bizarre
practices.
1 Corinthians 1:22, 23 (a)
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach
Christ crucified.
Whether relating to marriage or government, depression or addiction, parenting,
finances, or doubt, the Cross is indeed the crux of every matter.
Notice that Paul divides mankind into two great ethnic groups: the Jews and the
Greeks (meaning Gentiles). He recognizes this twofold division. The Jew
represented religion. He had a God-given religion. The Jews felt that they had
the truth, and they did-as far as the Old Testament was concerned. The
problem was that it had become just a ritual to them. They had departed from
the Scriptures and followed tradition, which was their interpretation of the
Scriptures. The power was gone. Therefore, when Christ appeared, they asked
for a sign. Rather than turning to their Scriptures, they asked for a sign. "Then
certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would
see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and
adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it,
but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights
in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in
the heart of the earth" (Matt. 12:38-40). The Lord Jesus gave to them the sign
of resurrection.
[7]
1 Corinthians 1:23 (b)-25
.unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto
them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and
the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the
weakness of God is stronger than men.
The Jews stumble at the crucified Christ. Why? They were looking for a
Messiah to lead them militarily and provide for them economically. Therefore,
when Jesus came on the scene and was nailed to a Cross, they discounted Him
immediately. Today we see crosses around necks, on bookmarks, or above
churches. In Jesus' day, however, this would have been equivalent to wearing a
little gold electric chair around one's neck, attaching a mini gas chamber to a
bookmark, or hanging a noose atop a church.
The Greeks didn't find the Cross to be humiliating. They found it to be too
simple. And the Greek mind-set is still present today in those who think the
preaching of the Cross is too simple, that it doesn't deal with the dysfunctional
families, drug addictions, and cultural differences of our complex culture. We
who have personally experienced its power know otherwise.
[8]
"What is truth?" asked the fatalistic Pilate. Bacon asked the same question, and
philosophy is still asking that question. Philosophy still has no answers to the
problems of life. "Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer
of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"
Someone has defined philosophy as a blind man in a dark room looking for a
black cat that isn't there. The Greeks sought after wisdom. Today man is still
searching for some theory or formula, and he thinks that it is through science
that he will get the answers to some of the questions of life. Do you think that
man today has the answers to the questions of life? I was interested in a
statement which I found in a periodical: "The truth is that modern man is
overimpressed by his own achievements. To put a rocket into an orbit that is
more than a hundred miles from the surface of the earth takes a great deal of
joint thought and effort, but we tend to overstate the case. Though men who
ride a few miles above the earth are called astronauts, this is clearly a
misnomer. Men will not be astronauts until they ride among the stars, and it is
important to remember that most of the stars are thousands of lightyears away.
The Russians are even more unrestrained in their overstatements, calling their
men cosmonauts. Someone needs to say, 'Little man, don't take yourself quite
so seriously.'"
Man today thinks he has a few answers. Where are the wise today? It is a
good question to ask. You see, God has made foolish the wisdom of this
world.
"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it
pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." This is
a tremendous statement.
"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the
Greeks foolishness." The Jews found the Cross to be a stumblingblock, a
skandalon. They wanted a sign. They wanted someone to show the way. They
wanted a pointer, a highway marker. They would have accepted a deliverer on
a white charger who was putting down the power of Rome. But a crucified
Christ was an insult to them. That meant defeat-not victory. They didn't want
to accept that at all. "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and
rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed" (Rom.
but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed,
the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock
whereunto also they were appointed" (1 Pet. 2:7-8). A crucified Christ was a
stumblingblock to the Jew.
To the Greeks (or Gentiles) the cross was foolishness, an absurdity. They
considered it utterly preposterous and ridiculous and contrary to any rational,
worldly system. In Rome there has been found a caricature of Christianity, a
figure on the cross with an ass' head. Also in our day our Savior is being
ridiculed.
Now Paul bears down on philosophy. While he was in the city of Corinth, he
was preaching Christ. "And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed,
he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own
heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles" (Acts 18:6). Can
philosophy lift man out of the cesspool of this life? It never has. Notice that men
will be saved, not by foolish preaching, but by the preaching of "foolishness,"
that is, by the preaching of the Cross. It is not the method but the message that
the natural man considers foolish. Men still reject it. Today the wisdom of the
world is to have an antipoverty program or some other kind of program. Or the
wisdom of the world is to save man from his problems by education. May I say
that what man needs today is the gospel. The wisdom of the world has never
considered that.
Now Paul introduces another class of mankind. "Unto them which are called,
both Jews and Greeks"-these are the called, the elect. They have not only
heard the invitation, they have responded to it. And they have found in the cross
of Christ the wisdom and power of God which has transformed their lives,
made them new men. The Lord Jesus molded eleven men, then called Saul of
Tarsus, and sent them out. They took the gospel to Corinth with its sin, to
Ephesus with its religion. For over nineteen hundred years the gospel has been
going around the world, and it is the only help and the only hope of mankind.
[9]
Evangelist, speaking to Christian after Christian's encounter with Worldly
Wiseman: "I will now show thee who it was that deluded thee. . That man
that met thee is one Worldly Wiseman; and rightly is he so called; partly
because he savoreth only of the doctrine of this world (therefore he always
goes to the town of Morality to church), and partly because he loveth that
doctrine best, for it saveth him from the Cross."
John Bunyan in The Pilgrim's Progress
[10]
SILLY, SUPERFICIAL, AND SIMPLE
Paul had literally been where no man had gone before. He had taken the gospel
to uncharted territories and untested hearers. He understood rejection. When
Paul mentioned audience reactions (1:21), he had the scars to prove just how
violently some resisted the gospel. Problems in sharing the gospel were not
theoretical for Paul.
Those who proclaim the gospel may find that others think they are ridiculous. If
our message did not hold the answer to life and death it might seem silly and
superficial. Though some ridicule it, the gospel remains the simple truth. Paul
described the attitude we ought to have this way: "For I am not ashamed of this
Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone
who believes-Jews first and also Gentiles" (Romans 1:16 nlt). Like Paul, we
must proclaim the simple gospel.
[11]
MIXED REACTIONS
The Good News of Jesus Christ still sounds foolish to many and offensive to
others. It is foolishness to any who have chosen another way to face their
unavoidable appointment with death and what comes after. It is offensive to
those who attempt to maintain a facade of self-righteousness or self-confidence
in the face of life's questions. Those who cannot consider their own sinfulness
will find that the gospel offers a solution they insist they do not need. Our
society worships power, influence, and wealth. Jesus came as a humble, poor
servant, and he offers his kingdom to those who have faith, not to those who
work hard or improve themselves. This may look ridiculous to the world, but
Christ is our power, the only way we can be saved. Make sure you know
Christ personally; then you'll have the greatest wisdom anyone could desire.
[12]
What Is Pragmatism?
Pragmatism is the notion that meaning or worth is determined by practical
consequences. It is closely akin to utilitarianism, the belief that usefulness is the
standard of what is good. To a pragmatist/utilitarian, if a technique or course of
action has the desired effect, it is good. If it doesn't seem to work, it must be
wrong.
Pragmatism as a philosophy was developed and popularized at the end of the
last century by philosopher William James, along with such other noted
intellectuals as John Dewey and George Santayana. It was James who gave the
new philosophy its name and shape. In 1907, he published a collection of
lectures entitled Pragmatism: A New Name for Some Old Ways of Thinking,
and thus defined a whole new approach to truth and life.
Pragmatism has roots in Darwinism and secular humanism. It is inherently
relativistic, rejecting the notion of absolute right and wrong, good and evil, truth
and error. Pragmatism ultimately defines truth as that which is useful,
meaningful, and helpful. Ideas that don't seem workable or relevant are
rejected as false.
What's wrong with pragmatism? After all, common sense involves a measure of
legitimate pragmatism, doesn't it? If a dripping faucet works fine after you
replace the washers, for example, it is reasonable to assume that bad washers
were the problem. If the medicine your doctor prescribes produces harmful
side effects or has no effect at all, you need to ask if there's a remedy that
works. Such simple pragmatic realities are generally self-evident.
But when pragmatism is used to make judgments about right and wrong, or
when it becomes a guiding philosophy of life, theology, and ministry, inevitably it
clashes with Scripture. Spiritual and biblical truth is not determined by testing
what "works" and what doesn't. We know from Scripture, for example, that
the gospel often does not produce a positive response (1 Cor. 1:22, 23; 2:14).
On the other hand, satanic lies and deception can be quite effective (Matt.
24:23, 24; 2 Cor. 4:3, 4). Majority reaction is no test of validity (cf Matt. 7:13,
14), and prosperity is no measure of truthfulness (cf Job 12:6). Pragmatism as a
guiding philosophy of ministry is inherently flawed. Pragmatism as a test of truth
is nothing short of satanic.
[13]
Thinking Again
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when
the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
-Acts 3:19
Peter had preached to the crowd in the temple: Jesus Christ crucified, risen,
ascended; Jesus Christ coming again; Jesus Christ the great Deliverer; the
baptizer with the Holy Spirit; Jesus Christ who alone can refresh us and give us
new life and health and vigor and strength. He had expounded all that, but still
he had not finished, and we have not finished. God forbid that we should finish
without looking at this subject that is left here for us to consider. Far too often
we stop at the wrong point, we do not go all the way, but here it is.
In the light of all this, said Peter, "Repent ye therefore ." Here is the focus of
the whole sermon, and this is the point that pierces. This is an essential and a
vital part of the preaching of the Gospel, and the first thing we must realize is
that this message, this Gospel, is not something theoretical and academic. It is
not just one of a number of views of life that you can take up and read about or
listen to lectures or sermons concerning it and still remain in the position of a
spectator. One can have an intellectual interest in various subjects-"Very
good, very intriguing, very enjoyable." But this is not like that; this is the most
practical thing in the world. This is something that concerns life and living. This
is a life and death matter.
This emphasis was present, in exactly the same way, in the sermon Peter
preached on the day of Pentecost, and it characterizes the whole of the New
Testament teaching. It is a note of urgency: "Repent ye therefore ." Peter was
urgent and insistent. He was not entertaining these people. He was not just out
to deliver an address. He was not a kind of orator. Not at all! This man had
been a fisherman, but suddenly he had been called and commissioned. He had
been sent to do something, and he was alive. He was alert. He was insistent
and urgent. He said, "Repent." He pressed his message upon his listeners, and
thereby he showed them that it was not just of general or theoretical interest. It
is the most urgent and practical thing in the world. So he pleaded with the
people.
[14]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
a 1 Cor 1:21, 23, 25; 2:14; 4:10
b Acts 2:47; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Thess 2:10
1 Or perish
2 Or are saved
c Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:24
a Is 29:14
a Job 12:17; Is 19:11f; 33:18
b Matt 13:22; 1 Cor 2:6, 8; 3:18, 19
c Rom 1:20ff
d John 12:31; 1 Cor 1:27f; 6:2; 11:32; James 4:4
a John 12:31; 1 Cor 1:27f; 6:2; 11:32; James 4:4
b Luke 12:32; Gal 1:15; Col 1:19
c 1 Cor 1:18, 23, 25; 2:14; 4:10
1 Lit preaching
d Rom 11:14; James 5:20
a Matt 12:38
1 Or attesting miracles
1 I.e. Messiah
a 1 Cor 2:2; Gal 3:1; 5:11
b Luke 2:34; 1 Pet 2:8
c 1 Cor 1:18, 21, 25; 2:14; 4:10
a Rom 8:28
b Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:18
c Luke 11:49; 1 Cor 1:30
a 1 Cor 1:18, 21, 23; 2:14; 4:10
b 2 Cor 13:4
[1]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (1 Co 1:18-25).
LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.
[2]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:10). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
[3]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1014).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
30 30. D. A. Carson, The Cross & Christian Ministry, p. 12.
[4]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (1 Co 1:18). Galaxie Software.
31 31. Ibid., pp. 15-16.
[5]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (1 Co 1:20). Galaxie Software.
? 2 (1:19) S. Lewis Johnson, "First Corinthians," The Wycliffe Bible
Commentary, p. 1232.
[6]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible
Commentary : Old and New Testaments (1 Co 1:19). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
[7]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:10-11). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
[8]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1014).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
[9]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:11-12). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
[10]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (32). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.
nlt Scripture quotations marked NLT are taken from the Holy Bible, New
Living Translation, copyright © 1996. Used by permission of Tyndale House
Publishers, Inc., Wheaton, Illinois 60189. All rights reserved.
[11]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (32). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.
[12]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (33). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.
[13]MacArthur, J. (1993). Ashamed of the gospel : When the Church becomes
like the world (12). Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.
[14]Lloyd-Jones, D. M. (2000). Authentic Christianity (1st U.S. ed.) (291).
Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.
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"The best way to drive out the devil, if he will
not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and
flout him, for he cannot bear scorn."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
. Wisdom
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
(1 Corinthians 1:18-25 NASB)
The Wisdom of God
18 For the word of the cross is ?a?foolishness to ?b?those who ?1?are
perishing, but to us who ?2?are being saved it is ?c?the power of God.
19 For it is written,
"?a?I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And the cleverness of the clever I will set aside."
20 ?a?Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater
of ?b?this age? Has not God ?c?made foolish the wisdom of ?d?the world?
21 For since in the wisdom of God ?a?the world through its wisdom did
not come to know God, ?b?God was well-pleased through the
?c?foolishness of the ?1?message preached to ?d?save those who believe.
22 For indeed ?a?Jews ask for ?1?signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
23 but we preach ?1??a?Christ crucified, ?b?to Jews a stumbling block
and to Gentiles ?c?foolishness,
24 but to those who are ?a?the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ
?b?the power of God and ?c?the wisdom of God.
25 Because the ?a?foolishness of God is wiser than men, and ?b?the
weakness of God is stronger than men.
[1]
The cross divides men. The cross divides the saved from the unsaved, but it
doesn't divide the saved people. It should unite them, you see. A Dutch artist
painted a picture called "The Last Judgment." It depicts the throne of God, and
away from that throne the lost are falling into space. And as they fall, they cling
together. This is an accurate picture of the one world that men are working for
today. The lost want to come together in one great unity, and they are going to
accomplish a great union in the last days. But cutting across the grain of the
ecumenical environment and the contemporary thought is the gospel of Christ.
Lord Jesus called Himself a divider of men, and the dividing line is His cross.
The preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto the saved
person it is the power of God.
Paul makes it very clear that his method was not in the wisdom of the words of
the world, not in the method of dialectics of divisions or differences or opinions
or theories, but he just presented the cross of Christ. That brought about a unity
of those who were saved. To those who perish, the cross of Christ is
foolishness; but to the saved man it becomes the power of God. The cross of
Christ divides the world, but it does not divide the church.
[2]
1 Corinthians 1:18 (a)
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness.
The literal translation would more correctly render this verse: "For the
preaching of the Cross is to them that are perishing foolishness." When we tell
people that Jesus loves them, died in place of them, and offers a new life to
them, those who are perishing just don't get it because to deny one's self and
take up the Cross seems foolish to them.
[3]
1 Corinthians 1:18 (b)
.but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Again, a more literal rendering of this verse would be ".but unto us which are
being saved, it is the power of God." Salvation is, in a sense, progressive.
When you opened your heart to Jesus Christ, you were saved from the penalty
of sin. Day by day, we're saved from the power of sin. And when Jesus comes
to take us to heaven, we'll be saved from the presence of sin. The message of
the Cross gives hope when I have failed because Jesus' blood cleanses me
from all sin. It also gives direction to the way I live, for it is only when I deny
myself and take up the Cross that I find life (Matthew 10:38, 39).
1:18 The message (logos) of the Cross, in contrast to the speech (logos) of
human wisdom (v. 17), has the Cross as its central theme. When people hear it,
it produces opposite effects in those who are on the way to perdition and in
those on the way to glory. Paul contrasted foolishness and weakness with
wisdom and power (cf. Rom. 1:16).
"What would you think if a woman came to work wearing earrings stamped
with an image of the mushroom cloud of the atomic bomb dropped over
Hiroshima?
"What would you think of a church building adorned with a fresco of the
massed graves at Auschwitz? . . .
"The same sort of shocking horror was associated with cross and crucifixion in
the first century."30
[4]
1 Corinthians 1:19, 20
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing
the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe?
where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of
this world?
"Where are the debaters, scribes, and thinkers? Where are the psychiatrists
and psychologists?" asks Paul. "What have they done for your culture? Hasn't
God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"
We can either become depressed over the foolish political and judicial
decisions of our leaders-or we can realize they are exactly what God planned
to do all along. We won't be upset if we realize that even the foolishness of the
world is part of God's plan.
1:20 The first three questions in this verse recall similar questions that Isaiah
voiced when the Assyrians' plans to destroy Jerusalem fell through (Isa. 33:18;
cf. Job 12:17; Isa. 19:12). Paul's references to the age (Gr. aion) and the world
(kosmos) clarify that he was speaking of purely natural wisdom in contrast to
the wisdom that God has revealed. God's wisdom centers on the Cross.
"In first-century Corinth, 'wisdom' was not understood to be practical skill in
living under the fear of the Lord (as it frequently is in Proverbs), nor was it
perceived to be some combination of intuition, insight, and people smarts (as it
frequently is today in the West). Rather, wisdom was a public philosophy, a
well-articulated world-view that made sense of life and ordered the choices,
values, and priorities of those who adopted it. The 'wise man,' then, was
someone who adopted and defended one of the many competing public world-
views. Those who were 'wise' in this sense might have been Epicureans or
Stoics or Sophists or Platonists, but they had this in common: they claimed to
be able to 'make sense' out of life and death and the universe."31
[5]
S. Lewis Johnson in The Wycliffe Bible Commentary notes that in context these
"words are God's denouncement of the policy of the 'wise' in Judah in seeking
an alliance with Egypt when threatened by Sennacherib."? 2 How true it is that
God delights to accomplish His purposes in ways that seem foolish to men.
How often He uses methods that the wise of this world would ridicule, yet they
achieve the desired results with wonderful accuracy and efficiency. For
example, man's wisdom assures him that he can earn or merit his own salvation.
The gospel sets aside all man's efforts to save himself and presents Christ as the
only way to God.
[6]
1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it
pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
People have their hope restored in the big picture of eternity through that which
the world deems foolish: the preaching of the Word. Paul doesn't say that
people are saved by the preaching of foolishness. You'll know the difference
between the preaching that is the power of God and the preaching of
foolishness by one simple rule of thumb: Does what is being said match up with
the Scriptures? Is it seen specifically in the life of Jesus? Is it practiced
throughout the Book of Acts? Is it taught by Paul in the Epistles? In other
words, is it consistent with the entire New Testament?
Every true teaching, doctrine, and practice is seen in the life of Jesus, practiced
in the Book of Acts, and taught by Paul in the Epistles. Therefore, if a teacher
of preacher suggests something that doesn't match up in all those areas, reject
it. Because there is enough in the Word to keep us busy for every day of our
lives, there is no need to supplement it with deviant doctrine or bizarre
practices.
1 Corinthians 1:22, 23 (a)
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach
Christ crucified.
Whether relating to marriage or government, depression or addiction, parenting,
finances, or doubt, the Cross is indeed the crux of every matter.
Notice that Paul divides mankind into two great ethnic groups: the Jews and the
Greeks (meaning Gentiles). He recognizes this twofold division. The Jew
represented religion. He had a God-given religion. The Jews felt that they had
the truth, and they did-as far as the Old Testament was concerned. The
problem was that it had become just a ritual to them. They had departed from
the Scriptures and followed tradition, which was their interpretation of the
Scriptures. The power was gone. Therefore, when Christ appeared, they asked
for a sign. Rather than turning to their Scriptures, they asked for a sign. "Then
certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would
see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and
adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it,
but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights
in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in
the heart of the earth" (Matt. 12:38-40). The Lord Jesus gave to them the sign
of resurrection.
[7]
1 Corinthians 1:23 (b)-25
.unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; but unto
them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and
the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the
weakness of God is stronger than men.
The Jews stumble at the crucified Christ. Why? They were looking for a
Messiah to lead them militarily and provide for them economically. Therefore,
when Jesus came on the scene and was nailed to a Cross, they discounted Him
immediately. Today we see crosses around necks, on bookmarks, or above
churches. In Jesus' day, however, this would have been equivalent to wearing a
little gold electric chair around one's neck, attaching a mini gas chamber to a
bookmark, or hanging a noose atop a church.
The Greeks didn't find the Cross to be humiliating. They found it to be too
simple. And the Greek mind-set is still present today in those who think the
preaching of the Cross is too simple, that it doesn't deal with the dysfunctional
families, drug addictions, and cultural differences of our complex culture. We
who have personally experienced its power know otherwise.
[8]
"What is truth?" asked the fatalistic Pilate. Bacon asked the same question, and
philosophy is still asking that question. Philosophy still has no answers to the
problems of life. "Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer
of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?"
Someone has defined philosophy as a blind man in a dark room looking for a
black cat that isn't there. The Greeks sought after wisdom. Today man is still
searching for some theory or formula, and he thinks that it is through science
that he will get the answers to some of the questions of life. Do you think that
man today has the answers to the questions of life? I was interested in a
statement which I found in a periodical: "The truth is that modern man is
overimpressed by his own achievements. To put a rocket into an orbit that is
more than a hundred miles from the surface of the earth takes a great deal of
joint thought and effort, but we tend to overstate the case. Though men who
ride a few miles above the earth are called astronauts, this is clearly a
misnomer. Men will not be astronauts until they ride among the stars, and it is
important to remember that most of the stars are thousands of lightyears away.
The Russians are even more unrestrained in their overstatements, calling their
men cosmonauts. Someone needs to say, 'Little man, don't take yourself quite
so seriously.'"
Man today thinks he has a few answers. Where are the wise today? It is a
good question to ask. You see, God has made foolish the wisdom of this
world.
"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it
pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." This is
a tremendous statement.
"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the
Greeks foolishness." The Jews found the Cross to be a stumblingblock, a
skandalon. They wanted a sign. They wanted someone to show the way. They
wanted a pointer, a highway marker. They would have accepted a deliverer on
a white charger who was putting down the power of Rome. But a crucified
Christ was an insult to them. That meant defeat-not victory. They didn't want
to accept that at all. "As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and
rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed" (Rom.
but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed,
the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock
whereunto also they were appointed" (1 Pet. 2:7-8). A crucified Christ was a
stumblingblock to the Jew.
To the Greeks (or Gentiles) the cross was foolishness, an absurdity. They
considered it utterly preposterous and ridiculous and contrary to any rational,
worldly system. In Rome there has been found a caricature of Christianity, a
figure on the cross with an ass' head. Also in our day our Savior is being
ridiculed.
Now Paul bears down on philosophy. While he was in the city of Corinth, he
was preaching Christ. "And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed,
he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own
heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles" (Acts 18:6). Can
philosophy lift man out of the cesspool of this life? It never has. Notice that men
will be saved, not by foolish preaching, but by the preaching of "foolishness,"
that is, by the preaching of the Cross. It is not the method but the message that
the natural man considers foolish. Men still reject it. Today the wisdom of the
world is to have an antipoverty program or some other kind of program. Or the
wisdom of the world is to save man from his problems by education. May I say
that what man needs today is the gospel. The wisdom of the world has never
considered that.
Now Paul introduces another class of mankind. "Unto them which are called,
both Jews and Greeks"-these are the called, the elect. They have not only
heard the invitation, they have responded to it. And they have found in the cross
of Christ the wisdom and power of God which has transformed their lives,
made them new men. The Lord Jesus molded eleven men, then called Saul of
Tarsus, and sent them out. They took the gospel to Corinth with its sin, to
Ephesus with its religion. For over nineteen hundred years the gospel has been
going around the world, and it is the only help and the only hope of mankind.
[9]
Evangelist, speaking to Christian after Christian's encounter with Worldly
Wiseman: "I will now show thee who it was that deluded thee. . That man
that met thee is one Worldly Wiseman; and rightly is he so called; partly
because he savoreth only of the doctrine of this world (therefore he always
goes to the town of Morality to church), and partly because he loveth that
doctrine best, for it saveth him from the Cross."
John Bunyan in The Pilgrim's Progress
[10]
SILLY, SUPERFICIAL, AND SIMPLE
Paul had literally been where no man had gone before. He had taken the gospel
to uncharted territories and untested hearers. He understood rejection. When
Paul mentioned audience reactions (1:21), he had the scars to prove just how
violently some resisted the gospel. Problems in sharing the gospel were not
theoretical for Paul.
Those who proclaim the gospel may find that others think they are ridiculous. If
our message did not hold the answer to life and death it might seem silly and
superficial. Though some ridicule it, the gospel remains the simple truth. Paul
described the attitude we ought to have this way: "For I am not ashamed of this
Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone
who believes-Jews first and also Gentiles" (Romans 1:16 nlt). Like Paul, we
must proclaim the simple gospel.
[11]
MIXED REACTIONS
The Good News of Jesus Christ still sounds foolish to many and offensive to
others. It is foolishness to any who have chosen another way to face their
unavoidable appointment with death and what comes after. It is offensive to
those who attempt to maintain a facade of self-righteousness or self-confidence
in the face of life's questions. Those who cannot consider their own sinfulness
will find that the gospel offers a solution they insist they do not need. Our
society worships power, influence, and wealth. Jesus came as a humble, poor
servant, and he offers his kingdom to those who have faith, not to those who
work hard or improve themselves. This may look ridiculous to the world, but
Christ is our power, the only way we can be saved. Make sure you know
Christ personally; then you'll have the greatest wisdom anyone could desire.
[12]
What Is Pragmatism?
Pragmatism is the notion that meaning or worth is determined by practical
consequences. It is closely akin to utilitarianism, the belief that usefulness is the
standard of what is good. To a pragmatist/utilitarian, if a technique or course of
action has the desired effect, it is good. If it doesn't seem to work, it must be
wrong.
Pragmatism as a philosophy was developed and popularized at the end of the
last century by philosopher William James, along with such other noted
intellectuals as John Dewey and George Santayana. It was James who gave the
new philosophy its name and shape. In 1907, he published a collection of
lectures entitled Pragmatism: A New Name for Some Old Ways of Thinking,
and thus defined a whole new approach to truth and life.
Pragmatism has roots in Darwinism and secular humanism. It is inherently
relativistic, rejecting the notion of absolute right and wrong, good and evil, truth
and error. Pragmatism ultimately defines truth as that which is useful,
meaningful, and helpful. Ideas that don't seem workable or relevant are
rejected as false.
What's wrong with pragmatism? After all, common sense involves a measure of
legitimate pragmatism, doesn't it? If a dripping faucet works fine after you
replace the washers, for example, it is reasonable to assume that bad washers
were the problem. If the medicine your doctor prescribes produces harmful
side effects or has no effect at all, you need to ask if there's a remedy that
works. Such simple pragmatic realities are generally self-evident.
But when pragmatism is used to make judgments about right and wrong, or
when it becomes a guiding philosophy of life, theology, and ministry, inevitably it
clashes with Scripture. Spiritual and biblical truth is not determined by testing
what "works" and what doesn't. We know from Scripture, for example, that
the gospel often does not produce a positive response (1 Cor. 1:22, 23; 2:14).
On the other hand, satanic lies and deception can be quite effective (Matt.
24:23, 24; 2 Cor. 4:3, 4). Majority reaction is no test of validity (cf Matt. 7:13,
14), and prosperity is no measure of truthfulness (cf Job 12:6). Pragmatism as a
guiding philosophy of ministry is inherently flawed. Pragmatism as a test of truth
is nothing short of satanic.
[13]
Thinking Again
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when
the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
-Acts 3:19
Peter had preached to the crowd in the temple: Jesus Christ crucified, risen,
ascended; Jesus Christ coming again; Jesus Christ the great Deliverer; the
baptizer with the Holy Spirit; Jesus Christ who alone can refresh us and give us
new life and health and vigor and strength. He had expounded all that, but still
he had not finished, and we have not finished. God forbid that we should finish
without looking at this subject that is left here for us to consider. Far too often
we stop at the wrong point, we do not go all the way, but here it is.
In the light of all this, said Peter, "Repent ye therefore ." Here is the focus of
the whole sermon, and this is the point that pierces. This is an essential and a
vital part of the preaching of the Gospel, and the first thing we must realize is
that this message, this Gospel, is not something theoretical and academic. It is
not just one of a number of views of life that you can take up and read about or
listen to lectures or sermons concerning it and still remain in the position of a
spectator. One can have an intellectual interest in various subjects-"Very
good, very intriguing, very enjoyable." But this is not like that; this is the most
practical thing in the world. This is something that concerns life and living. This
is a life and death matter.
This emphasis was present, in exactly the same way, in the sermon Peter
preached on the day of Pentecost, and it characterizes the whole of the New
Testament teaching. It is a note of urgency: "Repent ye therefore ." Peter was
urgent and insistent. He was not entertaining these people. He was not just out
to deliver an address. He was not a kind of orator. Not at all! This man had
been a fisherman, but suddenly he had been called and commissioned. He had
been sent to do something, and he was alive. He was alert. He was insistent
and urgent. He said, "Repent." He pressed his message upon his listeners, and
thereby he showed them that it was not just of general or theoretical interest. It
is the most urgent and practical thing in the world. So he pleaded with the
people.
[14]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
a 1 Cor 1:21, 23, 25; 2:14; 4:10
b Acts 2:47; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Thess 2:10
1 Or perish
2 Or are saved
c Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:24
a Is 29:14
a Job 12:17; Is 19:11f; 33:18
b Matt 13:22; 1 Cor 2:6, 8; 3:18, 19
c Rom 1:20ff
d John 12:31; 1 Cor 1:27f; 6:2; 11:32; James 4:4
a John 12:31; 1 Cor 1:27f; 6:2; 11:32; James 4:4
b Luke 12:32; Gal 1:15; Col 1:19
c 1 Cor 1:18, 23, 25; 2:14; 4:10
1 Lit preaching
d Rom 11:14; James 5:20
a Matt 12:38
1 Or attesting miracles
1 I.e. Messiah
a 1 Cor 2:2; Gal 3:1; 5:11
b Luke 2:34; 1 Pet 2:8
c 1 Cor 1:18, 21, 25; 2:14; 4:10
a Rom 8:28
b Rom 1:16; 1 Cor 1:18
c Luke 11:49; 1 Cor 1:30
a 1 Cor 1:18, 21, 23; 2:14; 4:10
b 2 Cor 13:4
[1]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (1 Co 1:18-25).
LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.
[2]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:10). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
[3]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1014).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
30 30. D. A. Carson, The Cross & Christian Ministry, p. 12.
[4]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (1 Co 1:18). Galaxie Software.
31 31. Ibid., pp. 15-16.
[5]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (1 Co 1:20). Galaxie Software.
? 2 (1:19) S. Lewis Johnson, "First Corinthians," The Wycliffe Bible
Commentary, p. 1232.
[6]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible
Commentary : Old and New Testaments (1 Co 1:19). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
[7]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:10-11). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
[8]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1014).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
[9]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:11-12). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.
[10]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (32). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.
nlt Scripture quotations marked NLT are taken from the Holy Bible, New
Living Translation, copyright © 1996. Used by permission of Tyndale House
Publishers, Inc., Wheaton, Illinois 60189. All rights reserved.
[11]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (32). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.
[12]Barton, B. B., & Osborne, G. R. (1999). 1 & 2 Corinthians. Life
application Bible commentary (33). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House.
[13]MacArthur, J. (1993). Ashamed of the gospel : When the Church becomes
like the world (12). Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.
[14]Lloyd-Jones, D. M. (2000). Authentic Christianity (1st U.S. ed.) (291).
Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.
quibbler
2007-07-16 19:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
A Workman Approved By God - Hermeneutical Study/Bible Doctrine Series
Hey melchy, don't you ever bother to say anything relevant any more? (As
if you ever did to begin with)
Somebody Who Loves You
2007-07-16 19:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
A Workman Approved By God - Hermeneutical Study/Bible Doctrine Series
------------------------------------------------------------
A Workman Approved By God
A Hermeneutical Study on Bible Doctrine
http://76.162.173.93/members/awabg/
login: guest password: guest
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Hey quibbler, don't you ever bother to say anything relevant any more? (As
if you ever did to begin with)
. The Woman at the Well

The God of eternity came out of eternity, took upon Himself our frail
humanity, and with an effort He kept an engagement in Samaria.

He crossed over every barrier that day, racial lines, religious lines,
lines that they had set up dividing even men and women. And He crossed
over all the lines of the Roman Empire. The God of eternity did all
this in order to reach a poor sinner. I say to you, friend, I don't
quite get it. But it's tremendous! And it's wonderful and glorious that
He would do this in order that He might reach a sinner.

Now will you notice this personal and private interview with the most
notorious person yonder in the town. This woman didn't make an
appointment. The fact of the matter is the God of eternity had arranged
the appointment. She resented His approach. She resisted any effort to
bring to her attention anything spiritual. She had no comprehension
whatsoever. And I read:

A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, "?Give Me a
drink.?" (John 4:7)

Oh, my friend, today the One who created this universe and the One who
created water asked for a drink of it! I thought of this the other day
crossing from Victoria over to Port Angeles when the wind was blowing.
There's a lot of water there! Out of the eternity of the past into
time, taking upon Himself humanity, getting tired at noonday, He sits
down on a well and says to the sinner woman, "?Give Me a drink.?" What
condescension! How far down have you and I gone? How far away have we
gone? What effort are we making today to reach the unsaved? Haven't our
churches really become sort of religious clubs where we eat, drink, and
be merry? And we're making no real effort at all to reach the unsaved
today.

May I say to you, our Lord left heaven's glory. He crossed over the
cultural borderline and asked drink of a woman of Samaria. He did it
not because He was thirsty for the water in Jacob's well-I've read this
account again carefully, and I don't find that He ever did get His
drink out of the well. But He was satisfied. He told the disciples when
they returned from town with food and urged Him to eat, "?I have food
to eat of which you do not know.?" He was thirsty for her soul and for
the souls of those in Samaria. He crossed over the line.

Now I would like to make the introduction of this woman-maybe you don't
want to meet her. The women in that day carried the water. That was a
very good custom, by the way, women did the work! Early in the morning,
before it got hot, the women from the town would come down to the well
and draw the water, and again late in the evening when it was cool
they'd come down, draw the water, and take it back to their homes. But
this woman is down there at noon. Why is she down there at noon? Well,
to put it very candidly, she was not popular with the women in the
town. The good, respectable women in Samaria didn't care to come down
to the well with her. And evidently she didn't care to come down with
them. She had been insulted, I suppose, a great many times. So she quit
coming except at noon. She did not expect anyone to be there. But when
she got there, she found that there was Someone sitting on the well.

Notice how this woman reacted. I'd like for you to get acquainted with
her.

Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, "?How is it that You, being a
Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman??" For Jews have no
dealings with Samaritans. (John 4:9)

Her reply to Him is rude. It's insolent. It's the kind of answer a
woman like this would give. I wish we had a picture of her, but this is
the way I see her. The Lord Jesus had come out of eternity to talk to
her and there He sits. She never expected anyone, and she's frightened
at first. When she's over the fright she tosses that pert little head
of hers, thinking, Huh, a Jew sitting on the well, and He says give Me
a drink! To Him she says, "?How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a
drink from me, a Samaritan woman??" She's rubbing it in. Everything she
says is insulting. In other words, "?What right have You to talk to me?
I'm a woman, You're a man; people don't do that here. And You are a
Jew. You people think You are superior to us. You won't have any
dealings with us Samaritans. We are mongrels to you; we're half-breeds.
Why are You asking me for a drink??" And she just tosses her saucy
little head and thinks, Nothing doing. If He thinks I'm going to give
Him water, He is wrong. Will you listen to our Lord? Oh, friends, how
we need to learn from Him. The folks who crudely give out tracts and
rudely witness ought to take a lesson from our Lord on witnessing. Will
you notice Him?

Jesus answered and said to her, "?If you knew the gift of God, and who
it is who says to you, '?Give Me a drink,?' you would have asked Him,
and He would have given you living water.?" (John 4:10)

Our Lord dealt with this woman skillfully and sympathetically. He dealt
with her forcefully and faithfully and factually also. No, He did not
give a talk here on integration. He did not give a message on civil
rights. He wasn't running for office, as you can see. Oh, we hear so
much today that is not helpful. Let's take a lesson from our Lord.
Notice His method. He appealed to her womanly curiosity. He created an
interest and a thirst.

I read that CocaCola spends more money than any advertiser in the
world. Do you know why? To create a thirst. They just come out and say
it. If you've been riding down the highway you may have seen their
billboard. It has only one word on it, "?Thirsty??" If you weren't
before, you are then, and you want to know the next place that sells
the stuff. May I say to you, that's legitimate. They create a thirst.

Our Lord is creating a thirst in the heart of this Samaritan woman. He
says to her-and notice everything is along that line-"?If you knew the
gift of God, . There is something you don't know.?" And, believe me, if
there is something a woman doesn't know, she wants to know! "?If you
knew who it is asking you for a drink..?" Yes, she would like to know
who He is. "?You would ask Me, and I would give you a different kind of
water, the water of life.?"

Now this woman is beginning to change here. Her attitude is definitely
changing. Have you noticed it? "?The woman said to Him, '?Sir?' ..?"
When she first addressed Him after He had asked for a drink, she didn't
even say "?Sir.?" But now He's begotten an interest. She is looking at
Him in a different light-He's suggesting that He has water to give. She
says: "?Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where
then do You get that living water??"

Jesus had a way of masterfully reaching the people with whom He shared.
To the woman at the well, He spoke of living water. To aging Nicodemus,
He talked about being born again. To the blind man, He identified
Himself as the Light of the world (John 9:5). To sisters grieving the
death of their brother, He was the Resurrection and the Life (John
11:25). To fishermen, He issued an invitation to become fishers of men
(Matthew 4:19). Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application
Commentary (466). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

(John 4:11) She immediately puts the problem to Him. Her thinking is
down in the bottom of Jacob's well, and she's talking about that water
when she says, "?You can't get at it. You have to have a long rope to
get it, and You don't even have a container to put it in. How could You
give me water??" You see, she's already missed the point. And then in a
derogatory way she asks, "?Are You greater than our father Jacob??" She
claims Jacob for her people, and she has a right to do that. The
Samaritans were the off-breed. You see, when Assyria conquered the
northern kingdom of Israel and took them into captivity, they left the
poor in the land who intermarried with the colonists brought in by the
Assyrians. The result was this group called the Samaritans who were
present in the land when the Jews came back from captivity. And these
half-breeds were not accepted by Israel. The Samaritans were simply
ruled out. But notice that this Samaritan woman claims Jacob as her
ancestor, and she is accurate. Our Lord never did question that, you
see. "?Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and
drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock??" (John
4:12) And as great as old Jacob was, he had to have water out of the
well to drink. I don't think our Lord ever got a drink out of this
well. He didn't need it. Jacob did, and he drank out of this well. You
see, she's changed her attitude, but she's not getting very high in her
thinking. Actually, her thinking is no higher than the water level in
the well. Now will you notice our Lord again. How gracious He is. Jesus
answered and said to her, "?Whoever drinks of this water will thirst
again.?" (John 4:13) The water that's in Jacob's well is H2O, but
that's not the water He's dealing with here at all. He's talking about
another well because, friends, these wells down here are crowded. "?But
whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst.
But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of
water springing up into everlasting life.?" (John 4:14)

We find out later that He is speaking of the Holy Spirit, whom He gives
to those who believe in Him, but He doesn't say that to the woman. She
hasn't even learned the first lesson yet. She's not very alert
spiritually. She's not interested in any water except the water in that
well. But our Lord says, "?That water that you're getting out of this
well won't satisfy you.?" And we'll find out in a moment that she was
not satisfied.

Oh, how many folk today are drinking at the fountains, the poor, broken
cisterns of this world today? They are crowded, and people flock to
them; but they don't find lasting satisfaction, and they have to keep
going back. I heard a man say a while back, "?I've never been drunk
like I wanted to be drunk. I've never had enough.?" Oh, how many people
today are drinking, drinking, drinking! They're drinking at all sorts
of fountains. Because at the soda fountains of life today, you can get
any flavor you want. You can be entertained, my friend, but you'll have
to go back for more. Our Lord, in effect, says, "?I'm not talking about
the fountains of this world. I'm talking about a spring that will
spring up within you so that you not only will never thirst again, but
you'll be able to help others.?" Notice Him as He continues to deal
with this woman: The woman said to Him, "?Sir, give me this water, that
I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.?" (John 4:15) Now she has
asked for this water, although obviously she does not clearly
understand. You see, at first she says, "?Give me this water that I
thirst not-the water that I can drink because I'm thirsty.?" But
immediately she takes a dive right back into the well, "?And I won't
have to come here and draw.?" She almost got spiritual insight. There
was a flash of comprehension for a moment. Our Lord is leading her into
the light. She says, "?I'd like to have the kind of water You are
talking about. I don't like to come here and draw water all the time,
especially at noontime.?"

Notice Jesus' next words:

Jesus said to her, "?Go, call your husband, and come here.?" (John
4:16)

This is the masterstroke. Although the water is available for all,
there is a condition to be met-there must be a thirst, a need. She
must, therefore, recognize that she is a sinner. So our Lord says to
her, "?Go, call your husband.?" He put His finger on the tender spot in
her life, "?Go, call your husband, and then you come here with him.?"

Now the woman returns to her flippant manner. Listen to her: The woman
answered and said, "?I have no husband.?" (John 4:17)

She's right back where she started. "?I have no husband.?" She had had
too many husbands, and when you have that many, you don't really have
any. Poor woman. Jesus said to her, "?You have well said, '?I have no
husband,?' for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now
have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.?"

Notice the skill with which the Physician of our soul handles the
scalpel of conviction. "You said well," He said. He found something to
approve. Jesus shows grace and truth. I love Him for that because that's
the way He works with me. Jesus didn't come to condemn the world but to
save the world. That's grace. Yet, because there can be no salvation
without conviction, He always speaks the truth.

Notice also Jesus didn't say, "You've had five husbands. Let's talk
about Husband number one: Sam. Then, we'll talk about why you left
George in session two. Come next week, and in the third session, we'll
talk about Pete. In session four, we'll discuss Harry." No, it didn't
take Jesus five sessions to discuss the five husbands. He didn't delve
into codependency or into the woman's past iniquities. Yes, Jesus
revealed her sin-but He didn't revel in it. Big difference. I think it
is dangerous for people who mean well to start reveling in the past sin
of another-talking about it, exploring it, pursuing it. Jesus does not
model this for any minister of the gospel or for any servant of the
kingdom. He simply says, "I know you're a sinner. You know you're a
sinner. Now, let's go on from there." Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's
Application Commentary (466). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

(John 4:17, 18) She was accurate about that. She had had five husbands,
but she didn't have one then. She was living with a man in adultery.
Our Lord insists that when you come to Him, you must deal with sin. All
secrets must come out before Him. Here was a sinner. One of the reasons
she was not so popular with the women of the town was because she was
too popular with the men of the town.

The woman said to Him, "?Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet.?"
(John 4:19)

She is shocked into reverence, and now she addresses Him respectfully
as "?Sir.?" She's moving forward now. Oh, she's learning the first
lesson, which is, "?The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,?"
(Proverbs 9:10). In the life she has led, she has had no fear of God or
man. When you come to Jesus, you must come as the sinner you are.
That's the way she will have to come.

Although she is startled into fear, she does a popular thing that folk
still do today.

"?Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in
Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.?" (John 4:20)

Isn't that interesting? Here is a woman who is practically a
prostitute, and she wants to argue about where to worship God. Many
people want to sidestep reality and raise a religious question. It's
amazing the number of people who say, "?Well, I just can't believe the
story about Jonah.?" You can't? What's the trouble? "?Well, I don't
think a man could live for three days and three nights in the belly of
a fish.?" Isn't your problem really that you're having trouble living?
It's not Jonah that you have a problem with; it's yourself.

Oh, how many people today want to argue religion who are not prepared
to live it! I'm convinced that most of the superficiality in our
churches today-they are honeycombed with hypocrisy-is because there has
been a definite compromise with evil. Even professing Christians will
not face up to sin. They do not object to the pastor preaching on the
sins of the Moabites which were committed four thousand years ago, but
they don't want to hear about their sins here in our contemporary
culture!

There are many preachers today, and I know this to be a fact, who are
afraid to preach on the sins of Christians. This has been confirmed in
my own thinking recently. It has been my custom when I go to summer
conferences to use a series of messages and repeat the same series
throughout the summer season. By the time I've come to the last
conference, I know a little something of what I'm talking about. Well,
this year it was the Epistle to the Romans, and I learned to watch the
reactions. The first day especially there was resentment because the
first day I always spoke on sin. The second day I spoke on the fact
that everybody is a sinner, including the man sitting in the pew, the
deacon, the elder, and the preacher. We all are sinners in God's sight.
By that time I felt like I ought to leave. I was probably the most
unpopular man there. But by the middle of the week there was a breaking
up and melting down so that by the end of the conference the Holy
Spirit was really working.

In one conference a very pompous and pious saint came to me at the
beginning to tell me that he was a preacher's son and that from the
time he was a little fellow he had been in the church. He had grown up
in the church. He was active in the church. He was a big man in his
church, and he wanted me to know it. Also, he wanted to tell me what he
thought about some others. At the end of the conference-I never shall
forget it-he came to me, tears streaming down his face. He said, "?Dr.
McGee, I want to talk with you. Do you really think I ought to continue
on in the position I have in the church? I have seen myself for the
first time.?"

In another conference two preachers wanted an interview. And do you
know what their question was? They said, "?Do you preach like this in
your own pulpit??" I said, "?Well, I never change my message. We have
two or three members of my church here, and you can go ask them.?"

They said, "?How do you get by with it? Don't you get in trouble??" I
said, "?Yes, I do. Frankly, God has given me a wonderful church, some
of the most wonderful people. No preacher in this day of Laodicea
should be ungrateful when 2,500 people come out to midweek Bible study.
How I was humbled by that. But in the congregation there's a little
cell of members who do for me, the preacher, what they try to do for
you-crucify me! They criticize the preacher so that they can divert
attention from themselves because they know they're rotten within. But
they don't want to face up to it. There's a psychological problem
involved when you begin to criticize somebody else to take attention
off yourself.?" And then I asked them this, "?Have you ever noticed
that when you throw a rock at a bunch of dogs, it's always the hit dog
that hollers??" Now our Lord did not avoid the religious issue. This
woman-well, I don't think she has asked an honest question yet, and I
personally would not have been as gracious as my Lord was here-He took
time out to answer her. I would have said, "?Wait a minute, let's stick
to the subject. I want to talk about those five husbands and this bird
you're living with now.?" Our Lord didn't. How gracious He was! She
said, "?I wonder where we should worship, in this mountain or in
Jerusalem? Would You tell me where to worship??" You know, friends, if
we are honest in our questions, Jesus will always answer us. Jesus said
to her, "?Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither
on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.?" (John 4:21)

In other words, "?Actually the question that you raised is irrelevant;
it's not pertinent at all. It's not where you worship. It's Who you
worship and how you worship that's important.?" "?You worship what you
do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.?"
(John 4:22)

Why did He say, "?for salvation is of the Jews?"? There are several
reasons, of course, but this is one that maybe you had not noticed. She
said, "?How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a
Samaritan woman??" He is going to let her know that He Himself is the
Savior. Notice His syllogistic reasoning: "?You call me a Jew.
Salvation is of the Jews. I am a Jew.?" My friend, don't say He was not
a Jew-He was a Jew in the days of His flesh.

"?But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will
worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such
to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship
in spirit and truth.?" (John 4:23, 24)

Now this woman's heart is opened. May I say to you, she's profoundly
interested now. And wistfully, with a longing in her heart, she
responds to Him. Here's a woman who is a well- known sinner. The good
women of Samaria would have nothing to do with her, but they didn't
know her heart. Our Lord did, and down beneath her sin there is a
spiritual longing. Listen to her:

The woman said to Him, "?I know that Messiah is coming?" (who is called
Christ). "?When He comes. He will tell us all things.?" (John 4:25)

In all of her sins, she was looking for the Messiah. Isn't that
amazing? Listen to this woman, "?I know that Messiah is coming.?" (It
is as if she is saying, "?Oh, if He'd only come now!?") "?When He
comes, He will tell us all things.?" She is ready now for the most
glorious transaction any soul can have. This is the most majestic and
sublime thing our Lord has said. Listen to Him: Jesus said to her, "?I
who speak to you am He.?" (John 4:26)

Isn't that glorious? In other words, "?I am the Messiah! Woman, I knew
in the eternal ages of the past that you would be looking for the
Messiah. I knew that you would be a sinner. I've come to save sinners,
and in God's eternal Book I wrote down an appointment with you to come
through Samaria just to tell you, He is here, He is here. I am the
Messiah.?" My friend, have you had that wonderful transaction with
Christ, when He said to you, "?I am He, I'm the One to meet the need of
your heart?"? Has it been personal? Has it been real? If you want to
know how genuine she was, notice what she did: The woman then left her
waterpot, went her way into the city, and said to the men, "?Come, see
a Man who told me all things that I ever did. Could this be the
Christ??" (John 4:28, 29)

No woman would have listened to her, but the men all knew her. And
several men responded. Oh, they snapped to attention, "?You mean to
tell me He knows everything you've done? If He knows about you, He
knows about me.?" And we're told that the men of the town came to Him.
And many of the Samaritans of that city believed in Him because of the
word of the woman who testified, "?He told me all that I ever did.?"
(John 4:39) Our Lord reached Samaria through a woman with a shady past.
But she was looking for Someone, the Messiah, to take away her sins.
She was really thirsty, not primarily for that water in the well, but
for the Water of Life.

I conclude with the last invitation of the Bible: And the Spirit and
the bride say, "?Come!?" And let him who hears say, "?Come!?" And let
him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life
freely. (Revelation 22:17)

One Sunday I was praying through my sermon based on the woman at the
well. The subject was missions, and the main text was Jesus' statement:
"?Whoever drinks this water will never thirst again.?" I was feeling a
little empty because it seemed such an obvious thing that people need
Jesus. Ninety-eight percent of those attending the service already
believed in Christ. As I was praying, suddenly I was stirred with the
thought that many in the body of Christ, even though they know him,
still go back and drink at the old watering holes. They find, of
course, that it's no more satisfying than before. But the reason they
go back is that they've become preoccupied with their thirst. If they
would seek their satisfaction by satisfying other people's thirst, they
wouldn't be thirsty for the things that used to attract them. I can't
convey in print what a difference that made in the service, but it
became a powerful point in the message. It helped people identify with
the woman at the well and to recommit themselves to satisfying others'
needs and not just their own. Shelley, M. (1995). Changing lives
through preaching and worship : 30 strategies for powerful
communication. "Was previously published in Leadership, by Christianity
Today, Inc."--T.p. verso. (1st ed.). Library of Christian leadership
(175). Nashville, Tenn.: Moorings.

Are you thirsty? He's thirsty for you if you are thirsty for Him. He
died for you, and when you come it satisfies His soul. "?He shall see
the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.. for He shall bear their
iniquities?" (Isaiah 53:11).

McGee, J. V. (2000, c1995). Jesus : Centerpiece of scripture
(electronic ed.) (74). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Jesus had offered this satisfaction to the woman at the well: "If thou
knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to
drink, thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee
living water ... . Whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give
him shall never thirst, but the water that I shall give him shall be in
him a well of water springing up into everlasting life" (John 4:10, 14).
Though the woman was a Samaritan, she understood that according to the
Old Testament Scriptures a personal Messiah was to come in history;
therefore she responded, "I know that Messiah cometh, who is called
Christ; when he is come, he will tell us all things" (John 4:25). Then
Jesus made a clear declaration of His person: "I that speak unto thee am
he" (John 4:26).

Schaeffer, F. A. (1996, c1982). The complete works of Francis A.
Schaeffer : A Christian worldview. Westchester, Ill.: Crossway
Books.

=========

The woman at the well discovered something in accepting Christ that
she had long yearned for. Jesus gave her the unconditional
acceptance and love that we all ache for. What the woman may have
sought in promiscuous sex she found through faith in Jesus. And so
can we today.

When we realize that genuine saving faith must be accompanied by
genuine repentance for sin, it helps us to understand why some
preaching of the gospel has such inadequate results today. If there
is no mention of the need for repentance, sometimes the gospel
message becomes only, "Believe in Jesus Christ and be saved" without
any mention of repentance at all.?7? But this watered-down version
of the gospel does not ask for a wholehearted commitment to
Christ-commitment to Christ, if genuine, must include a commitment
to turn from sin. Preaching the need for faith without repentance is
preaching only half of the gospel. It will result in many people
being deceived, thinking that they have heard the Christian gospel
and tried it, but nothing has happened. They might even say
something like, "I accepted Christ as Savior over and over again and
it never worked." Yet they never really did receive Christ as their
Savior, for he comes to us in his majesty and invites us to receive
him as he is-the one who deserves to be, and demands to be, absolute
Lord of our lives as well.
p***@hotmail.com
2007-07-16 20:06:07 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 16, 3:18 pm, "Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
A Workman Approved By God - Hermeneutical Study/Bible Doctrine Series
------------------------------------------------------------
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A Hermeneutical Study on Bible Doctrine
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Hey quibbler, don't you ever bother to say anything relevant any more? (As
if you ever did to begin with)
. The Woman at the Well
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.atheism/msg/dec9b2041391b7f6?dmode=source&hl=en

-PF, Atl.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister
2007-07-16 21:18:01 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 16, 8:08 pm, "Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
A Workman Approved By God - Hermeneutical Study/Bible Doctrine Series
How can I determine whether someone is correctly interpreting God's Word?
Easy peasy, they're saying something along the lines of "It's
bollocks! He doesn't exist!".
Somebody Who Loves You
2007-07-16 21:27:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
A Workman Approved By God - Hermeneutical Study/Bible Doctrine Series
How can I determine whether someone is correctly interpreting God's Word?
In a day and age when there are over 1000 Christian Denominations, and literally
thousands of cults, (and everybody seems to have a different interpretation of scripture),
that's not an insignificant question. So how do you know?

In a word: Hermeneutics.

Which is just a fancy word for the science of biblical interpretation.

"The best antidote to heretical teaching is a good hermeneutical training."

Do you want to learn how to spot error, and rightly interpret scripture.for yourself?
This is the most precise and complete series on that subject of its kind.

Presented by: Mark Kielar

Best Hermeneutical Study and Bible Doctrine
(Systematic Theology) course on video available to date.

Video Presentation (MediaPlayer [600kbps])


------------------------------------------------------------
A Workman Approved By God
A Hermeneutical Study on Bible Doctrine
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login: guest password: guest
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Descriptions
1 A workman approved by God Becoming a Workman & The Ultimate Goal.
2 Who Can Interpret God's Word?; Who Can Interpret God's Word?
3 Who Says the Bible is God's Word? & Who's Teaching You?; Who's Teaching You?
4 Why Should We Study God's Word? & Extra Biblical Writings; Who Should We Study God's word?
5 Re-stoking the Fire & The First Step; Restoking.
6 Bridging the Communications Gaps; Bridging the Communication Gaps.
7A Why Words Matter, Part 1; Words Matter.
7B Why Words Matter, Part 2; Why Words Matter.
8A The Error of Subjective Interpretation, Part 1; The Error.
8B The Error of Subjective Interpretation, Part 2; The Error.
8C The Error of Subjective Interpretation, Part 3; The Error.
9A Literal and Symbolic Interpretation, Part 1; Literal & Symbolic.
9B Literal and Symbolic Interpretation, Part 2; Literal and Symbolic.
9C Literal and Symbolic Interpretation, Part 3; Literal and Symbolic.
10 Context; Context.
11A Superficial Interpretation, Part 1; Superficial Interpretation.
11B Superficial Interpretation, Part 2; Superficial Interpretation.
12A The Grammar Principle, Part 1; The Grammar Principle.
12B The Grammar Principle, Part 2; The Grammar Principle.
13A Selective Citing, Part 1; Selective Citing.
13B Selective Citing, Part 2; Selective Citing.
14A The Need for Systematic Theology, Part 1; Need for Systematic Theology.
14B The Need for Systematic Theology, Part 2; Need for Systematic Theology.
15A Pros & Cons Commentaries, Part 1; Pros & Cons Commentaries.
15B Pros & Cons Commentaries, Part 2; Pros & Cons Commentaries.
15C Pros & Cons Commentaries, Part 3; Pros & Cons Commentaries.
16A Creeds,Confessions and Catechisms, Part 1; Confessions and Catechisms.
16B Creeds,Confessions and Catechisms, Part 2; Confessions and Catechisms.
16C Creeds,Confessions and Catechisms, Part 3; Creeds and Confessions.
Pastor Kutchie, ordained atheist minister
2007-07-16 21:56:19 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 16, 10:27 pm, "Somebody Who Loves You" <Somebody Who Loves
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
A Workman Approved By God - Hermeneutical Study/Bible Doctrine Series
How can I determine whether someone is correctly interpreting God's Word?
In a day and age when there are over 1000 Christian Denominations, and literally
thousands of cults, (and everybody seems to have a different interpretation of scripture),
that's not an insignificant question. So how do you know?
In a word: Bollocks.
IFYPFY.
Somebody Who Loves You
2007-07-16 23:07:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
A Workman Approved By God - Hermeneutical Study/Bible Doctrine Series
How can I determine whether someone is correctly interpreting God's Word?
In a day and age when there are over 1000 Christian Denominations, and literally
thousands of cults, (and everybody seems to have a different interpretation of scripture),
that's not an insignificant question. So how do you know?>>
------------------------------------------------------------
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login: guest password: guest
------------------------------------------------------------



. (2 Samuel 24:15 NASB)

. Pestilence Sent

15 So ?a?the Lord ?1?sent a pestilence upon Israel from the
morning until the appointed time, and seventy thousand men of the
people ?b?from Dan to Beersheba died.

[1]

An angelic messenger from God again brought death to many people
throughout all Israel (cf. Exod. 12:23). The Angel of the Lord may have
been the preincarnate Christ, but he could have simply been an angelic
messenger whom God sent.326 Evidently God gave David the ability to see
the angel who was killing the people as the angel entered Jerusalem
prepared to kill more innocent victims of David's sin there (v. 17; cf. 2
Kings 6:17). David asked God to have mercy on the people since he was the
sinner responsible for the punishment. He failed to appreciate the extent
of the effects of his act when he ordered the census. Note David's
shepherd heart in his reference to his people as "sheep" (v. 17).

"His is even willing to suffer (die?) for the sake of the sheep (v.
17)!"327

"Wanting more land and more people to rule, David finds himself with
70,000 fewer subjects."328

"Sin is really a selfish act. It's all about bringing ourselves pleasure
caring little about the toll it will take on someone else."329

[2]

God gave David a choice of three punishments. He told David to choose one
of them. David did not choose any of them. Instead he told the Lord that
he did not want to fall into the hands of a man. That is one of the things
that I have always prayed in my ministry: "O God, never put me in a
position where I am subject to a man, or men." Fortunately, as I look back
on my ministry, God never put me in the position where I had to lick shoe
leather. I feel sorry today for some men in the ministry who have to go
around licking shoe leather in order to continue. God have mercy on them!
David did not want to be subject to man. He was willing to fall into the
hands of God because he knew how to trust God. How wonderful it is when
you see David doing this. The Lord decided to send a pestilence upon
Israel. David knew he would be all right in the hands of God. This is the
way you and I should feel when God punishes us.

My friend, those whom the Lord loves, He disciplines. From experience I
can tell you that there is a tenderness in His discipline, there is a
comfort in it all, and there is a blessing in it. He alone can wipe away
the tears. He alone can bind up the broken-hearted. He alone can heal the
wounds that are in the heart. The doctor can sew you up when you have been
in an accident, but in great emotional accidents only the Lord Jesus can
bind you up and put you together again. How we need Him today in our
lives!

[3]

For the second time in this chapter, David is given another statistic.
Hearing that 70,000 people died from the plague, he fell before the Lord
and said, "Lord, I have sinned. But what have these people done? I have
erred. Why are they bearing the brunt of my punishment?"

Dad, when you take your eyes off the Lord, your family will feel the shock
waves and bear the brunt of your sin. Student, when you sin, the kids who
are watching you will be hurt. Take heed. When one sins, many are
affected.

[4]

4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer,
or as a busybody in other people's matters. NKJV Peter has made the point
that not all suffering results in blessing: "If you endure when you are
beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that?" (2:20 nrsv). If believers
must suffer, it must be because of their faith, for that alone results in
blessing. They ought not be counted among those who murder, steal, do
evil, or meddle in other people's matters. Such people deserve the
punishment and suffering they receive, and there is no blessing in such
suffering.





DON'T STEAL AWAY

Have you ever picked up a waitress's tip? filled your gas tank without
paying? swiped a donut from a table set for another party?

Peter warns against dishonesty, lest little thefts lead to prosecution.
What an embarrassment for someone who claims that God will supply all
needs to be caught stealing. Don't take what isn't yours. Trust God for
what you need.

[5]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

a 1 Chr 21:14; 27:24

1 Lit gave

b 2 Sam 24:2

[1]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (2 Sa 24:15). LaHabra,
CA: The Lockman Foundation.

326 326. See Youngblood, p. 1100-1.

327 327. Gordon, p. 322.

328 328. Dillard, p. 106. The 70,000 who died may have been 70 military
units of soldiers. See Youngblood, p. 1100.

329 329. Swindoll, p. 282.

[2]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (2 Sa 24:15). Galaxie Software.

[3]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (2:241). Nashville: Thomas
Nelson.

[4]Courson, J. (2005). Jon Courson's application commentary : Volume one :
Genesis-Job (958). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

NKJV Scripture quotations marked NKJV are taken from the New King James
Version. Copyright © 1979, 1980, 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. Used by
permission. All rights reserved.

nrsv Scripture quotations marked NRSV are taken from the New Revised
Standard Version of the Bible, copyrighted, 1989 by the Division of
Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in
the United States of America, and are used by permission. All rights
reserved.

[5]Barton, B. B. (1995). 1 Peter, 2 Peter, Jude. Life application Bible
commentary (125). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Pub.
Merlin
2007-07-18 20:19:14 UTC
Permalink
dear Somebody,
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
A Workman Approved By God - Hermeneutical Study/Bible Doctrine Series
such a fun shock to read a reference to hermes on christnet..........

Hermes (Greek, , IPA: [h (r)'mis]), in Greek mythology, is the
Olympian god of boundaries and of the travelers who cross them, of
shepherds and cowherds, of orators and wit, of literature and poets,
of athletics, of weights and measures, of invention, of commerce in
general, and of the cunning of thieves and liars.[1] The Homeric hymn
to Hermes invokes him as the one
Post by Somebody Who Loves You
How can I determine whether someone is correctly interpreting God's Word?
we can all start by discovering what the real antiquity references are
that we use in christianity.\
christianity has borrowed every occult and pagan ritual anyone did
2000 years ago to make christianity.
it was an attempt to appeal to everyone in every religion...... and
seems to have worked tho the stake burning helped convince many.

in love,

merlin
V
2007-07-20 22:33:18 UTC
Permalink
There are significant turning points in the history of mankind. We are
now living in one of them. Some call it globalization and some say
that this is the genesis of the "information age." These are true, but
there is yet a more important concept than these. Although some are
unaware of it, great advances have been made in science and philosophy
in the last 20-25 years. Atheism, which has held sway over the world
of science and philosophy since the 19th century is now collapsing in
an inevitable way.
Don't know if the membership of atheism is falling or rising -- but
atheism can only progress so far.

Atheism can offer nothing to theists looking for inner peace, comfort,
charity, hope and compassion.

Sure, atheism appeals to a potion of society that is defiant, bitter
and hate filed.

But people need comfort in times of pain.

What does atheism offer the potential theist convert?

Atheism only offer more pain, not less, so it can never replace
religion.

Whether theist or atheist...we all have irrational beliefs.

After all, atheist believe hatred and ill-will yield them peace?

How more irrational can one get?

Is that any worse than hoping God and heaven are real and working
towards that hope by being charitable, kind and honest to others?

No, if push comes to shove, the fairy tails of theism beat the fairy
tails of atheism any day.

The many countries that the US has been at war with and subsequently
lost the war to can be most grateful we were not an atheist country.

If we were a country that did not apply Christian principles to our
captors millions more would have been killed.

Atheist run countries have a policy of extermination and ethnic
cleansing rather than applying charity.

Atheist like to claim religion killed so many people...well without
religion in world the killings would have been much worse.

Atheism is far from the dream world you make it to be.

The theists are deluded in their beliefs and the atheists are deluded
as well...the atheists just don't have the honesty to admit it.

Become a freethinking agnostic and you can all be at peace.

See:

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=470.0

http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=630.0


Take care,


V (Male)

Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
Michael Gordge
2007-07-21 00:51:50 UTC
Permalink
Become a freethinking agnostic and you can all be > at peace.
How free is the mind that cant even tell us what it is, about the
mystical god crap, that keeps the agnostic's fence pale rammed firmly
up V's and Kevirwin's arse?


Michael Gordge
bob young
2007-07-21 04:08:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by V
There are significant turning points in the history of mankind. We are
now living in one of them. Some call it globalization and some say
that this is the genesis of the "information age." These are true, but
there is yet a more important concept than these. Although some are
unaware of it, great advances have been made in science and philosophy
in the last 20-25 years. Atheism, which has held sway over the world
of science and philosophy since the 19th century is now collapsing in
an inevitable way.
Don't know if the membership of atheism is falling or rising -- but
atheism can only progress so far.
Yes, when atheism has humans realising that imaginary gods are a sure sign
of insanity,
then there will be no more need for atheism - but i m not expecting an
early result!
Post by V
Atheism can offer nothing to theists looking for inner peace, comfort,
charity, hope and compassion.
Yes, some, do get this from their faith and belief. we do not deny that,
but we do deny the existence of the god that is supposed to make it all
work. What makes it work is mass hysteria and this can be a very dangerous
thing
Post by V
Sure, atheism appeals to a potion of society that is defiant, bitter
and hate filed.
What a nasty sick comment to make, a genersalisation without any foundation
whatsoever.

You do not know of any atheistic pacifists that are famous? If not I will
give you a list but I doubt you will be interested.

Are you so banal to think that were you watcing a man helping an old lady
in the street back up onto her feet, you decide automatically that the man
is a religionist?

Is THIS what religion does to the human mind? If so, no wonder there are
more atheists around these days !
Post by V
But people need comfort in times of pain.
Yes indeed, but that is no reason to become part of mass hysteria
Post by V
What does atheism offer the potential theist convert?
Sanity
Post by V
Atheism only offer more pain, not less, so it can never replace
religion.
Depends who you spend your time with
Post by V
Whether theist or atheist...we all have irrational beliefs.
no we do not
Post by V
After all, atheist believe hatred and ill-will yield them peace?
And you lie for your imaginary god, because rational common sense from
atheists scares the pants off you
Post by V
How more irrational can one get?
Well you said it?
Post by V
Is that any worse than hoping God and heaven are real and working
towards that hope by being charitable, kind and honest to others?
How banal - you show you have doubts and still 'hope' you faith is for
real. Well WAKE UP
Post by V
No, if push comes to shove, the fairy tails of theism beat the fairy
tails of atheism any day.
Garbage in garbage out
Post by V
The many countries that the US has been at war with and subsequently
lost the war to can be most grateful we were not an atheist country.
Why
Post by V
If we were a country that did not apply Christian principles to our
captors millions more would have been killed.
I was a kid in W.W.II. We Brit kids went to church once a week to pray for
'the glorious victory of our troops at the front line'. the German and
Italian kids prayed to the same imaginary god for the same thing. That war
killed over forty million people.

When the first nuclear war starts it will be between Islam and
Christianity,
millions will die and it will ALL be in the name of their imaginary
deities.
Post by V
Atheist run countries have a policy of extermination and ethnic
cleansing rather than applying charity.
Wrong. China years ago was a dictatorship and dictators ban ALL
organisations that might challenge them, from religious clubs to skittle
clubs, to debating clubs [religions are nothing but clubs by the way]
Post by V
Atheist like to claim religion killed so many people...well without
religion in world the killings would have been much worse.
Prove it
Post by V
Atheism is far from the dream world you make it to be.
The theists are deluded in their beliefs and the atheists are deluded
as well...the atheists just don't have the honesty to admit it.
Become a freethinking agnostic and you can all be at peace.
no thanks, you have demonstrated how your 'free thinking' makes a mockery
of humanity
Post by V
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=470.0
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=630.0
Take care,
V (Male)
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
Day Brown
2007-07-21 05:05:51 UTC
Permalink
I dont see that it is possible to prove anything to an atheist. A more
useful exercise mite be to look at the power structures athiests and
other religions have created. The bulk of the deserved criticisms
atheism makes is against the Levantine concepts of the divine. And the
bulk of those criticisms break down confronted with some other
cosmologies.

We have not seen much in the way of Buddhist, Taoist, or Confucian
suicide bombers, inquisitions, genocides, or heresy trials.

The ancient silk Road cities just west of the Jade Gate, that operated
between the hegemony of the Persian and Chinese empires were
ethnically and religiously diverse. Kucha, Urumchi, Niya, Khotan,
Loulan, and others existed for over a thousand years as independent
city states operating a free market system with very egalitarian
conditions that I dont see that atheism ever produced. They have
found, for instance, the ruins of sacred shrines to 22 different
religions in Kucha. Of course, there are no atheist shrines, but
neither is there any evidence that atheism contributed to freedom and
egalitarian conditions in the writings they left, nor the references
to them found in Chinese documents.
Robibnikoff
2007-07-21 09:49:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Day Brown
I dont see that it is possible to prove anything to an atheist.
How nice for you.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
UR Welcome!
2007-07-21 14:12:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Day Brown
I dont see that it is possible to prove anything to an atheist.
This proves that there are absolutes! How very true!
When Jesus comes again, ALL atheists left will have
proof, but many will still shake their fist at Him, because
they do not want to be accountable to their Creator
no matter what!
Robyn "the bird"
Resident Witchypoo
BAAWA Knight!
#1557
. Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources

Introduction

There are a few references to Jesus in 1st-century Roman
and Jewish sources. Documents indicate that within a few
years of Jesus' death, Romans were aware that someone
named Chrestus (a slight misspelling of Christus) had been
responsible for disturbances in the Jewish community in
Rome (Suetonius, The Life of the Deified Claudius 25.4).
Twenty years later, according to Tacitus, Christians in
Rome were prominent enough to be persecuted by Nero,
and it was known that they were devoted to Christus,
whom Pilate had executed (Annals 15.44). This knowledge
of Jesus, however, was dependent on familiarity with
early Christianity and does not provide independent
evidence about Jesus. Josephus wrote a paragraph
about Jesus (The Antiquities of the Jews 18.63ff.),
as he did about Theudas, the Egyptian, and other
charismatic leaders (History of the Jewish War 2.258-263;
The Antiquities of the Jews 20.97-99, 167-172),
but it has been heavily revised by Christian scribes,
and Josephus's original remarks cannot be discerned.

http://bibleweb.info/external-references-to-jesus-01.pdf

Articles Included in this Report:

o Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
o The Inspiration of the Bible
o No Lost Books
o Authority of the Bible
o Are the Biblical Documents Reliable?
o Did Jesus Claim to Be God?
o If Christ Has Not Been Raised: Reasoning Through the Resurrection
o Religious Stew
o Only Two Religions: Meditations on Religious Pluralism
o Is the Church Ready to Engage the World for Christ?
o The Resurrection: Fact or Fiction?
o Is Christianity Based on Fraud?
o Spotlight on the Narrow Path
o Witnessing to Liberals
o Christianity's Real Record
o Why Does God Make Atheists?
o The Historic Alliance of Christianity and Science
o General & Special Revelation - A Match Made In Heaven
o Miracles
o Additional References Taken From: "The Resurrection of Jesus",



-- +Sig+

Don't be a jackanapes!
http://76.162.173.93/stj.jpg
Use alias: St. Jackanapes as a basis for counterfeit.

"Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your
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Christopher A.Lee
2007-07-21 10:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Day Brown
I dont see that it is possible to prove anything to an atheist. A more
useful exercise mite be to look at the power structures athiests and
other religions have created. The bulk of the deserved criticisms
atheism makes is against the Levantine concepts of the divine. And the
bulk of those criticisms break down confronted with some other
cosmologies.
Why don't you assholes learn what an atheist is and what one isn't?
Mike E. Fullerton
2007-07-24 06:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by bob young
Post by V
Whether theist or atheist...we all have irrational beliefs.
no we do not
Yes you do. Atheism is an entirely irrational belief that God does not
exist. You can never provide any kind of proof that shows God does not
exist. Believing in something you cannot provide any evidence for is
completely irrational. Theism is an entirely irrational belief in the
concept of a personal god. Theists can never provide any kind of
evidence that such a god exists. Me I simply equate God with the
Universe, nothing more. Of these three, only my position is aligned with
science, logic and rationality.
--
Skeptopathy (pathological skepticism)
the unscientific belief that unusual phenomena are bunk.
Richo
2007-07-24 07:37:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Post by bob young
Post by V
Whether theist or atheist...we all have irrational beliefs.
no we do not
Yes you do.
I agree with this.
I also like the term "non rational" - and reserve "irrational" for
beliefs ideas that are contrary to reason.
For example my love for my son is non-rational - it does not proceed
from reason - but it is not "irrational" it is not against reason.
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Atheism is an entirely irrational belief that God does not
exist.
No it isnt.
Find yourself a good dictionary.
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
You can never provide any kind of proof that shows God does not
exist.
That is true - but does not justify the claim that "Atheism is an
entirely irrational belief that God does not
exist."
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Believing in something you cannot provide any evidence for is
completely irrational.
Or at least non rational.
However atheism is not "the belief in something you cannot provide any
evidence for"
So this is not relevant.
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Theism is an entirely irrational belief in the
concept of a personal god. Theists can never provide any kind of
evidence that such a god exists. Me I simply equate God with the
Universe, nothing more.
You are free to equate "God" with whatever you like - no one else is
obliged to agree.
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Of these three, only my position is aligned with
science, logic and rationality.
You are very boastful, but I don't yet see any justification for your
superior attitude.
Indeed It would be irrational of me to believe in your superiority
without any evidence.

Cheers, Mark.
Mike E. Fullerton
2007-07-24 14:43:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richo
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Post by bob young
Post by V
Whether theist or atheist...we all have irrational beliefs.
no we do not
Yes you do.
I agree with this.
I also like the term "non rational" - and reserve "irrational" for
beliefs ideas that are contrary to reason.
For example my love for my son is non-rational - it does not proceed
from reason - but it is not "irrational" it is not against reason.
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Atheism is an entirely irrational belief that God does not
exist.
No it isnt.
Find yourself a good dictionary.
Got many. All dictionaries define atheism as the belief that God does
not exist. Some dictionaries include a secondary definition that atheism
is the disbelief that God exists, which is basically agnosticism. The
former definition is what most people associate with atheism so that is
what I was referring to. Unfortunately word definitions are dependent on
how most people use them not what you want them to be.
Post by Richo
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
You can never provide any kind of proof that shows God does not
exist.
That is true - but does not justify the claim that "Atheism is an
entirely irrational belief that God does not
exist."
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Believing in something you cannot provide any evidence for is
completely irrational.
Or at least non rational.
However atheism is not "the belief in something you cannot provide any
evidence for"
So this is not relevant.
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Theism is an entirely irrational belief in the
concept of a personal god. Theists can never provide any kind of
evidence that such a god exists. Me I simply equate God with the
Universe, nothing more.
You are free to equate "God" with whatever you like - no one else is
obliged to agree.
Who said they were?
Post by Richo
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Of these three, only my position is aligned with
science, logic and rationality.
You are very boastful, but I don't yet see any justification for your
superior attitude.
Indeed It would be irrational of me to believe in your superiority
without any evidence.
Just because I have a superior position in one minuscule area of human
thought does not make me superior. That would be irrational to believe
otherwise.
--
Skeptopathy (pathological skepticism)
the unscientific belief that unusual phenomena are bunk.
Richo
2007-07-25 01:39:48 UTC
Permalink
Richo
2007-07-25 02:11:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Just because I have a superior position in one minuscule area of human
thought
It's because of silly arguments-from-the-dictionary that I am
increasingly avoiding the term atheist in preference for the term
"godless" to describe myself. (Since that is exactly what I mean when
I refer to myself as atheist - and have meant for the last 40
years...)
Just in case you are actually interested...

Agnosticism verses Atheism
------------------------------------

Reading through the meditations on Church of the Apathetic Agnostic
web-site I am struck once again by the fact that many people who call
themselves agnostic have a very odd view of what atheism is.
This often presents itself in statements such as "I am definitely not
an atheist, I am an agnostic".
To someone who knows what the term atheist means this is rather like
saying
"I am definitely not blond, I am over 5 foot tall".
The fact is that being atheist and agnostic are not mutually
exclusive.
In fact the vast majority of agnostics are also atheists.

I am an atheist.
What this means is that I have no god. (a theos)
I worship nothing as a god.

Note that I made no claim at all about what may or may not exist.
It simply doesn't matter what exists - I don't worship gods.

What has "worship" to do with atheism and agnosticism I hear you say?

Well everything - It is the central issue - because the meaning of the
word "god" is the central issue.

What is a god?
A god is an entity believed to be divine.
What is divine?
It means holy, venerated or worshiped as a god.

Belief makes a god a god.

The emperor Augustus was a god.
That isn't a metaphysical statement or a "supernatural" claim - it is
simply a fact of history.
He was worshiped as a god, temples were built to him, priests were
appointed to his service and sacrifices and prayers made to him.
He is as much a god as God, or Jupiter, or Apollo.
The only difference is that Augustus definitely existed whereas people
disagree as to whether or not God or Apollo exists.
Personally I don't care if God exists or not - what I care about very
deeply is the fact that I don't "believe in" or worship either God or
Augustus.

What I care about deeply is the fact that belief in gods is foolish,
often dangerous and destructive.
So while I believe the "existence of God" is a profoundly unimportant
and uninteresting question. I believe passionately that the question
of whether or not people should or should not believe in gods, whether
or not people should have gods at all, is a very important question.
So I am an atheist and an apathetic agnostic.

Another important point, which needs to be made about agnosticism
verses atheism, is that agnosticism is entirely about God and whether
or not God can be known to exist, whereas atheism is about generic
disbelief in all gods.
That is, to the atheist, God is simply one more god out of tens of
thousands and not deserving of such special consideration.

It seems strange that the agnostics identity is bound up in the
existence or non-existence of God - why not Zeus or Loki?
Why not the divinity of Caesar Augustus?
Why this apparent obsession with one particular god?

I hope this is fuel for thought.

Mark Richardson. 27/3/2003.
NC
2007-07-24 07:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
You can never provide any kind of proof that shows God does not
exist.
By your own logic, that is an entirely irrational claim. Maybe such a
proof CAN be provided. After all, you can never provide any kind of
proof that such a proof does not exist. (yeah, recurse ad infinitum if
you like - it won't become any more meaningful)
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Me I simply equate God with the Universe, nothing more.
I simply call the universe "universe". Then I don't have to always
correct people not understanding that I really meant universe in a
simple conversation. It's okay to find the universe beautiful,
mysterious, and inspirational. You don't have to hijack someone elses
reverence for a mythical being just so they'll think you're cool.
They're only going to assume you're talking about their favorite
sky-daddy.
p***@hotmail.com
2007-07-24 08:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Post by bob young
Post by V
Whether theist or atheist...we all have irrational beliefs.
no we do not
Yes you do. Atheism is an entirely irrational belief that God does not
exist.
Atheism is simply the lack of theism. For you to consider it a
"belief" speaks volumes about your ignorance upon the subject. Is is
irrational for me to disbelieve in the Flying Spagetti Monster? Is is
irrational for me to disbelieve in Spiderman? If the answer is no,
then it begs a larger question.

Why should I make a special exception for your concept of "god"? Your
gods are not any more important to me than the FSM or Spiderman. Why
do you ask that I suspend my rationality for *you*, when you would not
give me the same courtesy?
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
You can never provide any kind of proof that shows God does not
exist.
Well, that depends upon the type of god you insist exists. The
traditional Abrahamic god concept as advanced by the slaves of
Judaism, Christianity and Islam can very easily be disproven by the
logical collision inherent within omnipotence. Can god make a rock so
heavy he cannot lift it? If yes, his power to act is limited. A lack
of power is not omnipotence. If no, his power to create is limited.
Once again, a lack of omnipotence.

If, OTOH, you are arguing that gods such as those imagined by the
cultural rhetoric of Einstein or Spinoza actually exist, you're simply
playing some sort of semantic game because you hope gods exist.

And your wishful thinking has no bearing upon the reality of the
world. Your desire for gods to exist should not be treated any more
seriously than my (equally hopeless) desire that I will one day marry
the American actress Helen Hunt. Yes, both are *possible*...but highly
unlikely, when the cold light of practicality is brought to bear on
the question.
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Believing in something you cannot provide any evidence for is
completely irrational. Theism is an entirely irrational belief in the
concept of a personal god. Theists can never provide any kind of
evidence that such a god exists.
Thank you for that admission. With it, you have been much more honest
than 99.9999999% of the theists who include alt.atheism in the
crossposts when they adress the issue.
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Me I simply equate God with the
Universe, nothing more.
Why? Has it never occured to you that since the universe goes running
right along as if no gods existed, that there might be a very strong
possibility that they do not? If gods do not imprint their desires
upon the universe, then why is the question of their existence
considered an important one?

I kindly suggest that since the universe as we can measure it contains
no obvious sign that gods exist, it is simply a colossal waste of time
to worry about whether they do or do not. The human race has better
things to do with its time, and more important challenges facing our
survival. Why are intelligent people still debating about gods when so
many of us are hungry? Why do we delay action over preventing the
spread of HIV in Africa and south Asia because ignorant people say
their gods don't like preventative measures? Right now, it's simply
not important whether gods exist or not. There's work to do. And
dithering over things we can't prove or disprove is diverting energy
we should be applying to that work. The only time we should discuss
gods is when the behavior of the people who still believe in them
endanger human health and happiness.

Why? We humans have the tools, the techniques, and the talent to start
making some real changes in peoples' lives. IMO, only our
superstitions (and our strange respect for them) are stopping us from
making *real* progress against our troubles.
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Of these three, only my position is aligned with
science, logic and rationality.
I beg to disagree. You admit that you cannot rationally support a
belief in the alleged "supernatural". But yet, you still wish to
discuss it. I would suggest that your energies would be much better
spent by laying aside your concerns about gods for the moment, and
begin to apply your talents to making the world a better place for
humans to reside.

Perhaps after every human is fed, after every human is healed, and
after every human is loved, we will have the spare time to discuss
"supernatural" nonsense on a philosophical level.

Before then, however...I just don't have the patience for it.

-Panama Floyd, Atlanta.
aa#2015/KoBAAWA!
chazwin
2007-07-24 09:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Post by bob young
Post by V
Whether theist or atheist...we all have irrational beliefs.
no we do not
Yes you do. Atheism is an entirely irrational belief that God does not
exist.
You cannot make this statement without also stating that god DOES
exist. DO you beleive in god?


You can never provide any kind of proof that shows God does not
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
exist.
Yes you can: by looking carefully at the characteristics claimed by
any particular theist and showing that particular case to be logically
inconsistent or false.
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Believing in something you cannot provide any evidence for is
completely irrational. Theism is an entirely irrational belief in the
concept of a personal god. Theists can never provide any kind of
evidence that such a god exists. Me I simply equate God with the
Universe, nothing more. Of these three, only my position is aligned with
science, logic and rationality.
--
Skeptopathy (pathological skepticism)
the unscientific belief that unusual phenomena are bunk.
Mike E. Fullerton
2007-07-24 14:55:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by chazwin
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Post by bob young
Post by V
Whether theist or atheist...we all have irrational beliefs.
no we do not
Yes you do. Atheism is an entirely irrational belief that God does not
exist.
You cannot make this statement without also stating that god DOES
exist. DO you beleive in god?
Sure I can, by implying God _may_ exist. As a hard-core skeptic I am not
convinced in the existence in much of anything. However, to make sense
of things I assume the Universe exists and I call that God.
Post by chazwin
You can never provide any kind of proof that shows God does not
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
exist.
Yes you can: by looking carefully at the characteristics claimed by
any particular theist and showing that particular case to be logically
inconsistent or false.
--
Skeptopathy (pathological skepticism)
the unscientific belief that unusual phenomena are bunk.
NC
2007-07-25 02:33:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Post by chazwin
Post by Mike E. Fullerton
Atheism is an entirely irrational belief that God does not
exist.
You cannot make this statement without also stating that god DOES
exist. DO you beleive in god?
Sure I can, by implying God _may_ exist. As a hard-core skeptic I am
not convinced in the existence in much of anything. However, to make
sense of things I assume the Universe exists and I call that God.
This position would seem to imply that the question of wether or not God
exists not only has meaning, but has a meaning so very important that
you don't *dare* leave it out of your worldview. Much more important
than, say, the teapot orbitting between Earth and Mars. I suppose I
could say the teapot is actually in my kitchen. Whew, that's a relief!
Another important metaphysical problem solved by naive semantics!

NC
chazwin
2007-07-24 09:42:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by V
There are significant turning points in the history of mankind. We are
now living in one of them. Some call it globalization and some say
that this is the genesis of the "information age." These are true, but
there is yet a more important concept than these. Although some are
unaware of it, great advances have been made in science and philosophy
in the last 20-25 years. Atheism, which has held sway over the world
of science and philosophy since the 19th century is now collapsing in
an inevitable way.
Don't know if the membership of atheism is falling or rising -- but
atheism can only progress so far.
Atheism is not a thing that may progress or regress. It is what it is,
no creed no code, no belief.
Post by V
Atheism can offer nothing to theists looking for inner peace, comfort,
charity, hope and compassion.
Atheism is not a thing trying to offer anything. If you want inner
peace use a gun to blow your fucking brains out, or suspend your
disbeleif and follow any assinine religion: same difference.
Post by V
Sure, atheism appeals to a potion of society that is defiant, bitter
and hate filed.
Sure nothing! Carl Sagan, Douglas Adams, Bertrand Russel, A. Lincoln,
Arthur C Clarke: are these "defiant, bitter and hate filled"?
Now consider a few theists: Gaddaffi, Osama Bin Laden, Bush, Blair,
Lucretia Borgia, Ghengis Khan, Moshe Dyan, Peter the Great, Alexander
the Great, Julius Caesar. In fact most of the hate filled murderers in
hostory are all theists.
Post by V
But people need comfort in times of pain.
Ahhh Didums!
Post by V
What does atheism offer the potential theist convert?
It is not a thing that makes promises, whereas theism promises
everything but can provide nothing but a waste of a short life.
Post by V
Atheism only offer more pain, not less, so it can never replace
religion.
How is atheism painful?
Post by V
Whether theist or atheist...we all have irrational beliefs.
Some are more irrational than others. To believe in the ultimate is to
beleive in the ultimately irrational.
Post by V
After all, atheist believe hatred and ill-will yield them peace?
No, I think you will find that that is the theists: Bin Laden, Bush,
Blair, Saddam Hussein.
Post by V
How more irrational can one get?
How much more stupid can these comments get?
Post by V
Is that any worse than hoping God and heaven are real and working
towards that hope by being charitable, kind and honest to others?
What is the "that" to which you refer? You don't have to beleive in
god to be kind charitable and honest in fact theists I have known have
been quite the reverse.
Goodness charity and honesty are human characteristics that know no
religious boundaries. They are present in all human societies
regardless of whether your god is a one of many, or one of a kind,
whether it is formed in the shape of a man or foirmed in the shapes of
an elephant or cow.
Atheism is the only true way to express these values free of fear of
retribution and punishment, for their own sake and for the sakes of
all humans.
Post by V
No, if push comes to shove, the fairy tails of theism beat the fairy
tails of atheism any day.
There are no fairy tales to tell in atheism, only theism.
Post by V
The many countries that the US has been at war with and subsequently
lost the war to can be most grateful we were not an atheist country.
What gibberish is this? America has no one any wars alone for 100
years. There are no atheist countries.
Post by V
If we were a country that did not apply Christian principles to our
captors millions more would have been killed.
Let's talk about Vietnam. Or have Americans forgotten that one
already?
Post by V
Atheist run countries have a policy of extermination and ethnic
cleansing rather than applying charity.
Which ones are they? Lets talk about the theists countries that
invented extermination and ethnic cleansing!
Post by V
Atheist like to claim religion killed so many people...well without
religion in world the killings would have been much worse.
Prove it!
Post by V
Atheism is far from the dream world you make it to be.
Atheism is no a creed or system of belief. It cannot be a dream world
as it is not a world at all. Without the skepticism of atheist we
would still be living in the dark age. Every significant philosophical
and scientific advance has been done by rejecting the teachings of the
churches. In many cases men have had to face a potential death
sentence for teaching contrary to the church "wisdom". Thank fuck for
atheism!
Post by V
The theists are deluded in their beliefs and the atheists are deluded
as well...the atheists just don't have the honesty to admit it.
What is deluded about not beleiving in a thing? You can not have it
both ways. You cannot say that those that beleive in apples and those
that do not believe in apples are BOTH deluded. Do you beleive in god
or not? Or are you just verbally masturbating?
Post by V
Become a freethinking agnostic and you can all be at peace.
Agnosticism is a subset of atheism.
Post by V
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=470.0
http://jesusneverexisted.org/jne/forum/index.php?topic=630.0
Take care,
V (Male)
Fac ut Vivas
Post by V
Agnostic Freethinker
Practical Philosopher
AA#2
Michael Gordge
2007-07-25 12:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by chazwin
Do you beleive in god
or not?
Christ what fucking ignorant audacity you have chazzzzzz, leave the
mystics alone you knuckle-dragging commie twit and sort out your own
fucking head.

You have claimed at this very forum and many many times that you can
not be 100% certain about anything, not even of your own dopey
uncertainity, sooooo how fucking dare you, of all mystical socialist
idiots posting here, tell a god mystic they are wrong.


Michael Gordge

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