Discussion:
The Edge of Eternity
(too old to reply)
Mickey
2007-06-30 13:44:43 UTC
Permalink
. The Edge of Eternity

http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/

Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
GreyHairedFart
2007-06-28 15:08:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
The only truth to be found in the book of Revelations is that people
used funny chemicals even back then.
MarkA
2007-06-28 15:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
Here's a big, fat clue for you, Einstein. Even JESUS couldn't predict
anything about the 'end times.' He expected his second coming to be
within the lifetime of his disciples. Ever since Jesus, clerics have been
predicting the 'end times' over and over. Each time it fails to
materialize, it is always some variant of "Oops! We didn't account for
<some issue>. The NEW date for Armageddon is <insert some future date
here>."

What there is little hope for is that you and your ilk will ever get a
single fucking clue. About anything.
--
MarkA
(Still trying to come up with a clever sig line)
Nobody
2007-06-28 15:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by MarkA
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
Here's a big, fat clue for you, Einstein. Even JESUS couldn't predict
anything about the 'end times.' He expected his second coming to be
within the lifetime of his disciples. Ever since Jesus, clerics have been
predicting the 'end times' over and over.
The Question of Evil

Related Audio/Video Downloads
http://www.breakpoint.org/media/dkContent/6278/031407_BP.mp3

God's Answer

Skeptics often toss the problem of evil at Christians as if it were a
ticking time bomb. "If there is a God, and He is all-good, all-knowing, and
all- powerful, then why is there evil in the world?" It often seems as if
we have got five minutes to dismantle the problem to their satisfaction, or
we have exploded any chances of continuing a spiritual conversation.

But a new book, Evil and the Justice of God by author and theologian N. T.
Wright, turns the age-old question of evil on its head. Wright suggests
that perhaps more important than asking, "Why evil?" is asking, "What is
God doing about it?"

According to Wright, "the entire canon [of Scripture] . . . tells a story
which, from a bewildering variety of angles, is all about what . . . the
Creator God . . . is doing about evil." From forbidden fruit to flood, we
watch evil enter the world and spread like a wild vine to cover it. God
deals categorically with evil in the flood, but also mercifully spares
Noah's imperfect family to start again. Almost before the rainbow recedes
from the sky, evil raises its ugly head in Noah's own family. It continues
to spiral out of control until the Tower of Babel, where God again deals
with the problem by confusing our languages.

In Abraham, God again chooses one imperfect family to be a part of the
solution to the problem of evil. It doesn't take long, however, to see that
the solution is again part of the problem. The same pattern occurs with
David and his lineage.

How will God solve the conundrum? How will He deal with the problem of
evil? He will send Jesus Christ, a fully human, fully divine answer. As
Wright says, at the cross God draws "evil to a point in order to deal with
it there." Justice is satisfied. But mercy, through forgiveness, is also
extended. From there, God calls a new-born people to be a part of the
ongoing solution.

Though we still struggle with sin, we are called to be God's agents of
restoration until Christ's final return, when evil will be dealt with once
and for all.

The question of evil then becomes, not a philosophical one, but a practical
one. As Gary Haugen of the International Justice Mission has said, "Over
time I have come to see questions of suffering in the world not so much as
questions of God's character, but as questions about the obedience and
faith of God's people." God's people must herald God's solution: Jesus
Christ, who forgives our evil and makes righteous living and justice
possible.

Organizations like Haugen's International Justice Mission are answering the
problem of evil by freeing women held as sex slaves. Prison Fellowship
volunteers are answering it by going into prisons and bringing the light
and hope of God's forgiveness.

I could list countless other examples, but here's the point. The next time
someone poses the problem of evil to you, tell them, while you may not be
able to answer the why, you do know what God has done and is doing about
evil. And He has called us to join Him in His work.

By Mark Earley 3/14/2007
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Evil and the Justice of God by N. T. Wright.

For Further Reading and Information

Read articles about and by N. T. Wright.

Charles Colson and Nancy Pearcey, The Problem of Evil (Tyndale, 1999).

C. S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain (Fount, 2002 ed.).

David Bentley Hart, The Doors of the Sea: Where Was God in the Tsunami?
(Eerdmans, 2005).

Learn more about how you can get involved in Prison Fellowship and the
International Justice Mission.

Regis Nicoll, "How Do You Spell Evil?" BreakPoint Online, 16 March 2005.
MarkA
2007-06-28 17:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nobody
Post by MarkA
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
Here's a big, fat clue for you, Einstein. Even JESUS couldn't predict
anything about the 'end times.' He expected his second coming to be
within the lifetime of his disciples. Ever since Jesus, clerics have been
predicting the 'end times' over and over.
The Question of Evil
Related Audio/Video Downloads
http://www.breakpoint.org/media/dkContent/6278/031407_BP.mp3
God's Answer
Skeptics often toss the problem of evil at Christians as if it were a
ticking time bomb. "If there is a God, and He is all-good, all-knowing, and
all- powerful, then why is there evil in the world?" It often seems as if
we have got five minutes to dismantle the problem to their satisfaction, or
we have exploded any chances of continuing a spiritual conversation.
But a new book, Evil and the Justice of God by author and theologian N. T.
Wright, turns the age-old question of evil on its head. Wright suggests
that perhaps more important than asking, "Why evil?" is asking, "What is
God doing about it?"
According to Wright, "the entire canon [of Scripture] . . . tells a story
which, from a bewildering variety of angles, is all about what . . . the
Creator God . . . is doing about evil." From forbidden fruit to flood, we
watch evil enter the world and spread like a wild vine to cover it. God
deals categorically with evil in the flood, but also mercifully spares
Noah's imperfect family to start again. Almost before the rainbow recedes
from the sky, evil raises its ugly head in Noah's own family. It continues
to spiral out of control until the Tower of Babel, where God again deals
with the problem by confusing our languages.
It doesn't sound like your god has much control over his creation. Are
you sure you're not worshiping some divine bureaucratic middleman, while
the *real god* is off somewhere playing golf?
--
MarkA
(Still trying to come up with a clever sig line)
Nobody
2007-06-28 18:11:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by MarkA
Post by Nobody
Post by MarkA
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
Here's a big, fat clue for you, Einstein. Even JESUS couldn't predict
anything about the 'end times.' He expected his second coming to be
within the lifetime of his disciples. Ever since Jesus, clerics have been
predicting the 'end times' over and over.
Nope!
The Question of Evil
Related Audio/Video Downloads
http://www.breakpoint.org/media/dkContent/6278/031407_BP.mp3
God's Answer
Skeptics often toss the problem of evil at Christians as if it were a
ticking time bomb. "If there is a God, and He is all-good, all-knowing, and
all- powerful, then why is there evil in the world?" It often seems as if
we have got five minutes to dismantle the problem to their satisfaction, or
we have exploded any chances of continuing a spiritual conversation.
But a new book, Evil and the Justice of God by author and theologian N. T.
Wright, turns the age-old question of evil on its head. Wright suggests
that perhaps more important than asking, "Why evil?" is asking, "What is
God doing about it?"
According to Wright, "the entire canon [of Scripture] . . . tells a story
which, from a bewildering variety of angles, is all about what . . . the
Creator God . . . is doing about evil." From forbidden fruit to flood, we
watch evil enter the world and spread like a wild vine to cover it. God
deals categorically with evil in the flood, but also mercifully spares
Noah's imperfect family to start again. Almost before the rainbow recedes
from the sky, evil raises its ugly head in Noah's own family. It continues
to spiral out of control until the Tower of Babel, where God again deals
with the problem by confusing our languages.
It doesn't sound like your god has much control over his creation. Are
you sure you're not worshiping some divine bureaucratic middleman, while
the *real god* is off somewhere playing golf?
Nope!

Try this simple Bible Overview while UR cooling down. (]}-; <>< :-{[)

. Overview of the Bible - Real Video Series
. Note: It is required to use Internet Explorer
. (Not Firefox / Opera / Netscape, etc.)
. to view this series. A twenty four hour video series
. overviewing the entire Bible.

The Old Testament
Hour 01: Introduction
Hour 02: Genesis 1-3
Hour 03: Genesis 4-11
Hour 04: Genesis 12-50
Hour 05: Exodus - Deuteronomy
Hour 06: Joshua, Judges, Ruth
Hour 07: Samuel, Kings, Chronicles
Hour 08: Poetical Books
Hour 09: Daniel
Hour 10: Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther
Hour 11: Major Prophets
Hour 12: Minor Prophets
Hour 13: Messianic Thread

The New Testament
Hour 14: Introduction to New Testament
Hour 15: Gospels
Hour 16: Passion Week
Hour 17: Acts
Hour 18: Romans
Hour 19: Paul's Epistles
Hour 20: Hebrew Epistles
Hour 21: Eschatological Issues
Hour 22: Revelation 1-3
Hour 23: Revelation 4-22
Hour 24: Conclusion

. Overview the Bible
http://76.162.173.93/bible-study/=CD-R=ltb-24/
Real Video Player & IE [~90 kbps]
Mark K. Bilbo
2007-06-28 20:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Nope!
Whaddaya, two?
--
Mark K. Bilbo a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
------------------------------------------------------------
"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism,
because it is a merger of State and corporate power."
- Mussolini
raven1
2007-06-28 22:30:49 UTC
Permalink
A twenty four hour video series overviewing the entire Bible.
This would be outlawed as torture under the Geneva Conventions.
--

"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
Irv Hyatt
2007-06-29 03:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by raven1
A twenty four hour video series overviewing the entire Bible.
This would be outlawed as torture under the Geneva Conventions.
Maybe I'm just punchy tonight but I'm getting a lot of hearty laughs from a
lot of these posts.
Good one raven... heh heh
Post by raven1
--
"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
Al Klein
2007-06-29 01:13:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nobody
Try this simple Bible Overview while UR cooling down. (]}-; <>< :-{[)
Why do all you Christian nutters have the same trouble writing a
simple English sentence?
Velvet Elvis
2007-06-29 18:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Al Klein
Post by Nobody
Try this simple Bible Overview while UR cooling down. (]}-; <>< :-{[)
Why do all you Christian nutters have the same trouble writing a
simple English sentence?
He's a functional illiterate. Hence, his need to plagiarize other's work.


---------------------------------------------------------
Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows
with a high powered rifle and scope.

P.J. O'Rourke
raven1
2007-06-28 22:29:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nobody
Post by MarkA
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
Here's a big, fat clue for you, Einstein. Even JESUS couldn't predict
anything about the 'end times.' He expected his second coming to be
within the lifetime of his disciples. Ever since Jesus, clerics have been
predicting the 'end times' over and over.
The Question of Evil
<snip>

Got any on-topic replies?
--

"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
Uncle Vic
2007-06-29 04:57:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by MarkA
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
Here's a big, fat clue for you, Einstein. Even JESUS couldn't
predict anything about the 'end times.' He expected his second
coming to be within the lifetime of his disciples. Ever since Jesus,
clerics have been predicting the 'end times' over and over.
<snip>

BZZZZT! NON ANSWER! NEXT!
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
Rob Brown
2007-06-28 16:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
I see no "God's Words", only the words of humans claiming to act as proxies
for something they call "God". Can you could understand that phrases like
"Truth of God's Word" "Bible says" "God says" hold no real meaning for me?
None, zero, nada, zip. They only say something about the speaker and
absolutely nothing else. They hold real serious meaning and implications for
you but, really, seriously, not at all for me.
Believers wield these phrases as if they are respected and feared by
everyone else. They're not. You are not in possession of a powerful
instrument.
You brandish the equivalent of a laughable, limp, weenie in the face of
people who recognize it for what it is, useless, impotent nonsense.
Rob Brown
Stan-O
2007-06-28 20:04:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mickey
Your future hangs in the balance...
I see you're now ripping off one of Al Gore's old titles...
NoOne
2007-06-28 21:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stan-O
Post by Mickey
Your future hangs in the balance...
I see you're now ripping off one of Al Gore's old titles...
Didn't he re-invent himself recently? (-:
raven1
2007-06-28 22:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mickey
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Absolutely! Vote for Hillary in 2008!
--

"O Sybilli, si ergo
Fortibus es in ero
O Nobili! Themis trux
Sivat sinem? Causen Dux"
Uncle Vic
2007-06-29 04:55:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
The end-times already happened for the dinosaurs. But the earth is still
here. When the universe ends, implodes, and another Big Bang creates a new
iteration of the previous matter, everything will start over. Eventually,
an intelligent sentient being will evolve somewhere. Let's hope it doesn't
fuck everything up and invent imaginary superheros, as ours did.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
Ben Kaufman
2007-06-29 11:37:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Uncle Vic
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
The end-times already happened for the dinosaurs. But the earth is still
here. When the universe ends, implodes, and another Big Bang creates a new
iteration of the previous matter, everything will start over. Eventually,
an intelligent sentient being will evolve somewhere. Let's hope it doesn't
fuck everything up and invent imaginary superheros, as ours did.
Not so fast. There will be "end of times" for religion in a few more hundred
years. - assuming Bush doesn't manage a "newcleeOhr" war with Russia over the
North Pole, which would send the survivors back to the Stone Age.

Ben
Irv Hyatt
2007-06-29 12:21:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Kaufman
Post by Uncle Vic
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
The end-times already happened for the dinosaurs. But the earth is still
here. When the universe ends, implodes, and another Big Bang creates a new
iteration of the previous matter, everything will start over. Eventually,
an intelligent sentient being will evolve somewhere. Let's hope it doesn't
fuck everything up and invent imaginary superheros, as ours did.
Not so fast. There will be "end of times" for religion in a few more hundred
years. - assuming Bush doesn't manage a "newcleeOhr" war with Russia over the
North Pole, which would send the survivors back to the Stone Age.
Ben
He would like to start a 'new-cue-lar' war.
Larry J
2007-06-29 14:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
. Hard-Wired to Connect

Related Audio/Video Downloads
http://breakpoint.org/media/dkContent/6433/043007_BP.mp3

The Field of Social Neuroscience

You've heard the old saw before: Science is one thing, religion
another-that on one hand, science deals with hard facts, while religion
deals with unverifiable beliefs and inflexible dogmas. In fact, these days
we are hearing an awful lot from fanatical atheists like Richard Dawkins,
author of The God Delusion, who say that Christianity is actually a threat
to science: that religion and science are fundamentally at odds.

So I always find it amusing when areas of scientific inquiry confirm
fundamental truths, so basic to the Christian faith. And that's exactly
what we see in the emerging scientific field of inquiry called social
neuroscience. This is the study of the brain in the interpersonal world.
In a new book called Social Intelligence, author Daniel Goleman explores
the fascinating "neural ballet" that connects humans brain-to-brain. And
guess what? Goleman concludes that we are hard-wired to connect. According
to the author, "Neuroscience has discovered that our brain's very design
makes it sociable, inexorably drawn into an intimate brain-to-brain linkup
whenever we engage with another person."

What's more, the impulse to imitate is undeniably imprinted in our
biology. As Goleman explains, "A different variety of brain cells, mirror
neurons, sense both the move another person is about to make and their
feelings, and instantaneously prepare us to imitate that movement and feel
with them."

It is easiest to notice this mimetic impulse with babies, but it applies
well into our adulthood. For example, social neuroscientists have
discovered that when we see others scratch an itch, our brains are
actually firing in a similar neural pathway to theirs. Goleman also says
that in one sense, we can catch another person's emotions much like we
catch a cold: "neural Wi-Fi," if you will.

So what does this have to do with a biblical worldview? A lot. Scriptures
tell us that the Godhead is essentially interpersonal: Father, Son, and
Holy Spirit-three in one, the Trinity. While each maintains essence, each
is intimately intertwined with the other-just the way the brain is wired.
Likewise, when God made Adam, He said that it was not good for man to be
alone. At the end of each day of creation, God said, "It is good," but
when God created man, He in effect paused, saying something's missing.
What was missing was relationship. So God created Eve. Made in the image
of an interpersonal God, humans are inherently sociable creatures, craving
relationships, both with God and with one another.

And these mirror neurons I talked about earlier point to another
fundamental aspect of creation. All humans are created in the imago Dei,
the image of God. But theologians have also long talked about the imatatio
Dei or imatatio Cristi. We are made to imitate God, to imitate Christ. In
fact, Scriptures teach us that we achieve our most fundamental
purpose-holiness-when we become more like Christ. We are designed to
imitate or be little mimics of Christ throughout the earth. This is God's
plan. Ephesians 5:1 tells us, "Be imitators of Christ, therefore, as
dearly loved children."

Neuroscience is revealing not only are we made, like God, to be
relational, we are also made to be creatures who imitate: the very thing
God has commanded us to do. So what do we learn from science? It teaches
us that we are biologically wired for the very thing God created us for-no
coincidence.

By Chuck Colson

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
- For Further Reading and Information

Daniel Goleman, Social Intelligence: The New Science of Human
Relationships (Bantam, 2006).

Sandra Blakeslee, "Cells That Read Minds," New York Times, 10 January
2006.

Beth Azar, "At the Frontier of Science," Monitor on Psychology, vol. 33, 1
January 2002.

Catherine Claire, "Identity-Critiquing Modern and Postmodern Notions," The
Point, 27 September 2006. Also see "More Thoughts on Identity-Critiquing
Modern and Postmodern Notions" and "More Thoughts on Identity-That
Thudding Image."

Hardwired to Connect: The New Scientific Case for Authoritative
Communities, report from the Commission on Children at Risk.

Regis Nicoll, "Science and Religion: Adversaries or Allies?" BreakPoint
Online, 13 April 2007.

BreakPoint Commentary No. 061024, "Opening the Door for God: Something
beyond Nature."

BreakPoint Commentary No. 031204, "We've Been Lied To: Christianity and
the Rise of Science."

BreakPoint Commentary No. 031219, "Lost and Found: Modern Science and
Ancient Faith."

BreakPoint Commentary No. 031222, "A New Ending to An Old Story: Following
the 'Plot Twists'."

BreakPoint Commentary No. 020830, "Wagging the Dog: The Invented War
between Science and Christianity."

BreakPoint Commentary No. 021028, "Of Science and Religion: What Really
Got Galileo into Trouble."

BreakPoint Commentary No. 990816, "Are You 'Anti-Science'?: The Christian
Origins of Science."
skyeyes
2007-06-29 23:02:53 UTC
Permalink
On Jun 29, 4:37 am, Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-
Post by Ben Kaufman
Post by Uncle Vic
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
The end-times already happened for the dinosaurs. But the earth is still
here. When the universe ends, implodes, and another Big Bang creates a new
iteration of the previous matter, everything will start over. Eventually,
an intelligent sentient being will evolve somewhere. Let's hope it doesn't
fuck everything up and invent imaginary superheros, as ours did.
Not so fast. There will be "end of times" for religion in a few more hundred
years. - assuming Bush doesn't manage a "newcleeOhr" war with Russia over the
North Pole, which would send the survivors back to the Stone Age.
It's more likely that nuclear war will erupt between China and India.
China is proposing to dam the Brahmaputra River on the Tibetan
Plateau. The Brahmaputra provides approximately 1/3 of the water
supply to rural India. India's nukes are not pointed at Pakistan,
they're pointed at China.

Of course, if you live in the United States, you've probably never
heard about this conflict because hey, Paris Hilton just got out of
jail.

Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
Ben Kaufman
2007-06-30 04:30:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by skyeyes
On Jun 29, 4:37 am, Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-
Post by Ben Kaufman
Post by Uncle Vic
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
The end-times already happened for the dinosaurs. But the earth is still
here. When the universe ends, implodes, and another Big Bang creates a new
iteration of the previous matter, everything will start over. Eventually,
an intelligent sentient being will evolve somewhere. Let's hope it doesn't
fuck everything up and invent imaginary superheros, as ours did.
Not so fast. There will be "end of times" for religion in a few more hundred
years. - assuming Bush doesn't manage a "newcleeOhr" war with Russia over the
North Pole, which would send the survivors back to the Stone Age.
It's more likely that nuclear war will erupt between China and India.
China is proposing to dam the Brahmaputra River on the Tibetan
Plateau. The Brahmaputra provides approximately 1/3 of the water
supply to rural India. India's nukes are not pointed at Pakistan,
they're pointed at China.
Of course, if you live in the United States, you've probably never
heard about this conflict because hey, Paris Hilton just got out of
jail.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
Of course all eyes are on Paris. We are curious about the guard she says she
found in prison.

Ben
James Norris
2007-06-30 11:25:56 UTC
Permalink
Design for a Conscious Mechanoid
[Just to deter the predictable 'define what you mean by conscious'
posting: 'Conscious' means 'aware of reality' - a human being is
conscious, but a piece of paper is not conscious. If there is still a
problem with understanding the word 'conscious', try using a
dictionary.]
Start off with millions of identical ordinary (non-conscious) robots.
Each robot is pre-programmed to collect things from the environment at
random (twigs, elastic bands, teadcups, wheels, orange peel etc), and
incorporate them into itself, gradually replacing all its original
component parts as it does so. Now let the robots free to interact
with the environment, and watch what happens.
Most of the robots would cease to function quite rapidly, of course.
They might replace one of their vital components (the computer
program, for example), with a piece of orange peel and immediately
stop working permanently. Some might continue to function for quite a
while, making meaningless minor alterations to their original
structure, without affecting their basic operation as a programmed
mechanical device, which we knew to be non-conscious. We can ignore
robots which have replaced themselves with biological material which
was already conscious, because that is obviously not what we are
interested in.
The robots we are interested in are those which manage to replace all
their constituent components, including their original computer
hardware and software, but are still functioning. They, like
ourselves, have been created out of material from the environment, so
they might be conscious, as we are.
A certain amount of complexity is required for consciousness, and this
could be provided, for example, by using the twigs to twang the
elastic bands - the vibrational properties of the elastic bands could
easily carry any complexity necessary for the occurrence of thought.
For that to happen by chance is extremely unlikely of course, as is
the likelihood of millions of monkeys randomly operating typewriters
producing the occasional Shakespeare sonnet by chance, but if you left
them long enough, they would eventually do it!
Consciousness is a subjective experience, so there is no way of
determining whether or not anything or anybody is conscious. In the
design above, the construction allows the possibility that
consciousness might occur in a device which was originally non-
conscious. The random self-modifying behaviour may have led to a
wheeled mechanism made out of orange peel, teacups and elastic bands
held together with bits of wood, with its understanding of reality
contained in the vibrational processes occurring in the twig-twanged
elastic bands, which wanders around in the natural environment
apparently decorating itself with the bits of garbage it picks up.
Perhaps the device has improved on its original design and is now
conscious? At any rate, it certainly wouldn't be less conscious than
it was to begin with.
James Norris
I read your thread. Was it a satirical portrayal of atheist
"reasoning"?
No, it was a design for a conscious entity, neither biological nor
computer-based.
"A certain amount of complexity is required for consciousness, and
this could be provided, for example, by using the twigs to twang the
elastic bands - the vibrational properties of the elastic bands could
easily carry any complexity necessary for the occurrence of thought."
You could imagine atheists setting themselves up as authorities on
which tunes played on a guitar gave rise to consciousness, and whether
one string, or all the strings, or the whole guitar had the
experiences. They could debate on to what extent they could
anthropomorphise the conscious experience a certain song gave.
The notion of vibrations carrying information was an example of how
the necessary complexity for 'thoughts' might arise in the mechanism.
I understand from your earlier postings that you believe that human
beings have a non-physical 'soul', so I'm not sure why you think my
suggestion is so laughable.
Though the part where you said, "consciousness is a subjective
experience, so there is no way of determining whether or not anything
or anybody is conscious", did illustrate that from an atheist
perspective there would be no experimental difference expected whether
something was or wasn't consciously experiencing, which is something a
few of them here are having problems coming to terms with.
I don't know why you pick on atheists in particular as having a
problem with the unverifiability of subjective experiences, but
anyway, perhaps many of us do - I personally don't.
Still, very amusing, assuming of course you weren't being serious, and
an absolute nutter.
An absolute nutter in your opinion might be someone who believed that
they had four souls, rather than just the one, I suppose.
The Design for a Conscious Mechanoid is quite serious - a hypothetical
example of how a constructed 'mechanical' (ie non-biological) being
might be conscious. I'm not suggesting that it would ever work in
reality, any more than that a million monkeys typing on a million
typewriters for a million years to produce the works of Shakespeare
would ever work in reality. The example draws attention to the
salient aspects of an interesting question. I'm glad you found it
amusing though. I always try to make my postings interesting and
memorable, and humour is a well-known didactic tool.
The problem with no experimental difference expected whether something
was or wasn't consciously experiencing, is that it means whether it
was or wasn't, couldn't be thought to influence behaviour. If that was
the case, it would have to be a coincidence that our behaviour
expressed the conscious experiences we actually have (it couldn't have
been influenced by their existance).
You are trying to discuss consciousness using behavioural concepts.
The behavioural understanding of the psyche has little to say about
consciousness - the brain reacts to external stimuli and produces
behaviour in the organism, which is studied to give an understanding
of the workings of the brain. Cognitive models of consciousness,
which you should look into as they might help you express your
argument, are inside-out compared to the behavioural viewpoint. The
'mind' (which is believed to exist because of processes occurring in
the brain) is considered as an Ego, with Superego, Id and various
other paraphernalia, and these all contribute to goal-directed
behaviour caused by subjective 'needs' which the conscious being tries
to satisfy.
Anyway, interesting post. So have you any thoughts on which tunes
played on a guitar might be give rise to, the string(s) or the guitar
thinking? Any thoughts on what those thoughts might be? I ask you, as
I guess you would be the closest thing to a world authority on the
concept, or have you got competition?
No, you haven't really grasped the point about the vibrations in the
example. I was just pointing out that a certain amount of complexity
is required for consciousness, so complexity is needed somewhere in
the mechanoid. Vibrating systems can contain information of arbitrary
complexity - they don't have to be made out of physical elastic
bands. Vibrations occur in strings in general, these could be the
theoretical strings of string-theory, or hair-like cilia made from
millions of tiny pinheads all oscillating in a plasma field, if you
think elastic bands are too primitive a device to be worth
considering. Some people think that Mobius strips are weirdly clever
- perhaps if millions of elastic bands were Mobius strips interacting
in a complex 3-d lattice, with carefully placed twigs and twiglets to
provide the necessary resonance and feedback effects, it would be
rather more likely to have the necessary complexity for conscious
awareness of reality, than using just the one guitar string that you
suggest?
Discuss.

Jim



On Jun 30, 5:30?am, Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-
On Jun 29, 4:37 am, Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
The end-times already happened for the dinosaurs. But the earth is still
here. When the universe ends, implodes, and another Big Bang creates a new
iteration of the previous matter, everything will start over. Eventually,
an intelligent sentient being will evolve somewhere. Let's hope it doesn't
fuck everything up and invent imaginary superheros, as ours did.
Not so fast. There will be "end of times" for religion in a few more hundred
years. - assuming Bush doesn't manage a "newcleeOhr" war with Russia over the
North Pole, which would send the survivors back to the Stone Age.
It's more likely that nuclear war will erupt between China and India.
China is proposing to dam the Brahmaputra River on the Tibetan
Plateau. The Brahmaputra provides approximately 1/3 of the water
supply to rural India. India's nukes are not pointed at Pakistan,
they're pointed at China.
Of course, if you live in the United States, you've probably never
heard about this conflict because hey, Paris Hilton just got out of
jail.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
EAC Professor of Feline Thermometrics and Cat-Herding
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
Of course all eyes are on Paris. We are curious about the guard she says she
found in prison.
Ben- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
You Think
2007-07-03 22:18:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Uncle Vic
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
The end-times already happened for the dinosaurs. But the earth is still
here. When the universe ends, implodes, and another Big Bang creates a new
iteration of the previous matter, everything will start over. Eventually,
an intelligent sentient being will evolve somewhere. Let's hope it doesn't
fuck everything up and invent imaginary superheros, as ours did.
--
Uncle Vic
Hey vis, when I was a pre-teen, we would talk fantasies like that. U should
grow up a little and examine what people have written that had stood the
test of time and is shown to be protected by God Himself, unlike any other
human manuscript, and rewrite ur little understanding of your everlasting existence.
Uncle Vic
2007-07-04 21:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by You Think
Hey vis, when I was a pre-teen, we would talk fantasies like that.
U should grow up a little and examine what people have written that
had stood the test of time and is shown to be protected by God
Himself, unlike any other human manuscript, and rewrite ur little
understanding of your everlasting existence.
I'll tell ya what. I promise to grow up if you promise to take a science
class, you ignorant, superstitious knuckledragger.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department.
Convicted by Earthquack.
Ben Kaufman
2007-07-05 12:25:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by You Think
Post by Uncle Vic
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
The end-times already happened for the dinosaurs. But the earth is still
here. When the universe ends, implodes, and another Big Bang creates a new
iteration of the previous matter, everything will start over. Eventually,
an intelligent sentient being will evolve somewhere. Let's hope it doesn't
fuck everything up and invent imaginary superheros, as ours did.
--
Uncle Vic
Hey vis, when I was a pre-teen, we would talk fantasies like that. U should
grow up a little and examine what people have written that had stood the
test of time and is shown to be protected by God Himself, unlike any other
human manuscript, and rewrite ur little understanding of your everlasting existence.
So you are saying you traded in you pre-teen belief in what astrophysicists told
you for some bronze age sheep herder tales?

Ben
You Think
2007-07-05 12:30:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Kaufman
Post by You Think
Post by Uncle Vic
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
The end-times already happened for the dinosaurs. But the earth is still
here. When the universe ends, implodes, and another Big Bang creates a new
iteration of the previous matter, everything will start over. Eventually,
an intelligent sentient being will evolve somewhere. Let's hope it doesn't
fuck everything up and invent imaginary superheros, as ours did.
--
Uncle Vic
Hey vis, when I was a pre-teen, we would talk fantasies like that. U should
grow up a little and examine what people have written that had stood the
test of time and is shown to be protected by God Himself, unlike any other
human manuscript, and rewrite ur little understanding of your everlasting existence.
So you are saying you traded in you pre-teen belief in what astrophysicists told
you for what the Creator of the universe has come here as a man and has offered
all who believe in Him, His propituation for us, and the gift of eternal life, YES!
Ben
. Propitiation!

A man in Texas had the urge for a midnight snack. So he rolled out of bed
and walked down the hallway toward the kitchen. Passing the nursery, he
noticed his three-month-old son's bassinet toppled on the floor. Racing
back into the bedroom, he woke his wife to see if she had taken the baby
from the bassinet, but his wife was sound asleep and knew nothing of the
matter. Panic filled his heart as he ran down the hall, down the stairs,
and into the living room, where, much to his horror and shock, he saw his
twelve-foot pet python with a large lump in its center. He knew
immediately what happened to his baby. In anger and outrage, he went to
the back porch, grabbed a splitting maul, chopped up the snake, and ran
out of the front door screaming. He was later committed to a mental
institution.

This true story haunts me and is helpful to me in understanding a
biblical concept often misunderstood by people who wrestle with theology.
You see, although people do not have a problem when we talk about the
love of God, the wrath and judgment of God are things with which people
struggle. Yet if the man in Texas was justified in smashing that snake,
how much more is God justified in dealing with snakelike people who have
devoured others mindlessly and heartlessly.

I think of what happened in Somalia. Tens of thousands of babies starved.
Why? Because war lords were fighting for territory geographically,
jockeying for position politically, and preventing food from reaching
kids who were dying needlessly.

I think of what happened in Bosnia Herzegovina-where women were raped and
men slaughtered by the thousands, all in the name of ethnic cleansing.

I think of Medford, Oregon, where the school board forbids the
distribution of Bibles on school campuses as well as the use of any
school buildings to be rented to any church group for any reason. I
think, wonder, and ponder how it can be that a society that distributes
condoms refuses to allow the distribution of Scripture.

Why does God allow this insanity? Why does He, who sees not only the
tragedy of Bosnia and Somalia, but the utter depravity of even the most
seemingly together person, put up with a world so bent on
self-destruction?

The answer is very simple: Because God made man in His image, He gave him
the ability to choose. And when man chose to listen to the hissing of
Satan rather than to the Word of God, he unknowingly handed dominion of
the planet over to Satan. That's why Jesus called Satan the prince of
this world (John 14:30) and why Paul called him the god of this world (2
Corinthians 4:4). In the Garden of Eden, man turned this planet over to
Satan. That's why there are diseases and rape, war, death, and sadness on
our planet. It's not a matter of God allowing these things. It's a matter
of man giving Satan the authority to cause them.

Meanwhile, God looks down from heaven, and, as He was in Noah's day, is
filled with righteous indignation (Genesis 6:5-7). Yet even in Noah's
day, man found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Genesis 6:8). God looked at
Noah, had grace on Noah, and did a work through Noah. So, too, He will
again pour out His wrath in the period called the Tribulation.

Until then, however, what's the solution for the very genuine wrath God
feels concerning snakelike creatures like you and me? The answer is
propitiation. Why such a big word? Because no smaller word would suffice.
The Greek word translated "propitiation" is hilasterion, which means "to
appease the wrath of." We often say, "God hates the sin but loves the
sinner." While that is true, it is at best a shallow understanding
because the distinction between sin and sinner is not so easily made. You
see, I am not only the baby devoured by the python. I am the python. I am
a victim of sin, yes-but I am also its perpetrator.

Sin hurts people. It destroys mankind. It's cruel, vicious, and wrong.
And my own sin is no less devastating. Thus, God is understandably filled
with righteous indignation, which can only be appeased through
propitiation.

The people of Israel, having been delivered from Egypt, were on their way
to the land promised to them-a land flowing with milk and honey and
wonderful blessings. But en route, they started murmuring and complaining
(Numbers 21:5). The sin of complaining led to suffering in verse 6 as the
people were bitten by poisonous snakes. Suffering led to sorrow in verse
7. Sorrow led to salvation in verses 8, 9, when those who looked upon the
brass serpent were healed. Who was the Brass Serpent? Jesus (John
3:14-16).

Propitiation is God wielding a splitting maul upon the snake, the Brass
Serpent, Jesus Christ-instead of upon me. Am I calling Jesus Christ the
snake? Yes, because He who knew no sin became sin for us (2 Corinthians
5:21) in order that the wrath of the Father over the sin of the world
would be appeased. Instead of smashing a world that is snakelike and
bestial, He turned to His innocent Son and laid upon Him the iniquity of
us all.

Jesus understood this. That's why in the Garden of Gethsemane, He prayed
with such intensity, "Father, if possible, don't let Me drink of this
cup" (see Matthew 26:39). Socrates took the cup of hemlock and drank it
bravely. Was Jesus less than Socrates? No. It wasn't physical death Jesus
feared; it was the wrath of His Father that caused Him to break out in a
bloody sweat (Luke 22:44). Jesus knew what it meant to be the
propitiation, the satisfaction, the appeasement of wrath.

"The Father pouring out His anger upon His innocent Son is a form of
child abuse," you say. Wait a minute. What is the name of the Son?
Almighty God, Everlasting Father (Isaiah 9:6). You see, God Himself
became a Man and absorbed the wrath of His own indignation. The mystery
of the Trinity, the mystery of propitiation is that God actually wielded
the splitting maul upon Himself.

Hilasterion, or "propitiation"-the word we don't hear much today-is used
only five times in the entire New Testament: Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2; 1
John 4:10; and Hebrews 9 are four of them. The Hebrews reference, I
believe, is a real key to unlocking this understanding, for in describing
the mercy seat, the author of Hebrews uses the word hilasterion. The
mercy seat, or hilasterion, covered the ark of the covenant. The ark of
the covenant contained the law. Therefore, through the mercy seat, God
says, "I know you've broken the law. I know you deserve to be consumed
because of it. But I'm going to put a lid on it through the sacrifice of
My Son. He is the helasmos, the mercy seat, the propitiation. It's not
something He gives. It's who He is, for He has come between you and the
broken law. The wrath that I should vent on you was instead placed upon
My Son, who died in your place."

The fifth use of the word "propitiation" is found in Luke 18. If you feel
offended that I would liken you to a baby-eating python, if you are
repulsed by a God who would became a Man and slaughter Himself to
propitiate His righteous indignation, Luke 18:10-14 is the passage for
you. It is a brief vignette, concerning the prayers of a Pharisee and a
tax collector. Look at verse 13: "God, be merciful to me a sinner." It
begins with "God" and ends with "sinner." The middle phrase, "be
merciful"-the verb form of hilasterion-stands between God and sin. Every
one of us is in one of two categories. You're either the self-righteous
Pharisee, or you're the tax collector, grateful that Jesus is standing
between God and your sin.

What does a correct understanding of the concept of propitiation do?

Propitiation blows my mind. Propitiation adds an entirely different
dimension to what Paul calls "so great salvation" (Hebrews 2:3). It's not
just the Father saying, "I'm going to settle mankind's problem
judicially." No, He deals with it personally.

Propitiation warms my heart. That God would love me so much He would
actually become the object of His own wrath touches my heart in a
profound way.

Propitiation weakens my knees. Considering the righteous wrath of a
powerful God makes me realize that sin is serious. The Bible says the
beginning of wisdom is to fear God (Proverbs 1:7). And it goes on to say
that to fear God is to hate sin (Proverbs 8:13). The concept of
propitiation makes me question my own view of sin. How do I react when I
see things on the screen or hear unkind words come from my own mouth? If
you're knowingly sinning today in what you're doing, or where you're
going, I encourage you to think through propitiation.

Propitiation tickles my toes. Jacob was in a place he called Luz, or
"separation" After tricking his brother Esau out of his birthright and
blessing, he was in the wilderness running for his life. That night, as
he laid his head on a rock and tried to sleep, God revealed Himself to
him, pouring out a blessing upon him and giving a promise to him. Jacob
woke up and said, "Surely I am in the presence of God and I knew it not."
And he changed the name of the location from Luz to "Bethel," or "house
of God." Then, as we read in Genesis 29:1, Jacob "went on his journey."
Translated literally this phrase reads, "Jacob had happy feet."

"I'm a creep. I'm a crook. I'm a criminal," he said, "but the Lord met
me, has a plan for me, and is going to travel with me. Now I have happy
feet."

So, too, I say, "Oh, Lord, I know I'm a sinner. But because You absorbed
the anger that should have been poured out upon me, I leave here today
with tickled toes, weakened knees, a warmed heart, and a blown mind!"

May God continue to give us a comprehension of His love through an
understanding of propitiation.

In Jesus' Name.

[1]

A Topical Study of Romans 3:23-25

(Romans 3:23-25 NASB)

23 for all ?1??a?have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24 being justified as a gift ?a?by His grace through ?b?the
redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

25 whom God displayed publicly as ?a?a ?1?propitiation ?2??b?in
His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness,
?3?because in the ?c?forbearance of God He ?d?passed over the sins
previously committed;

[2]

3:25 God set forth Christ Jesus as a propitiation. A propitiation is a
means by which justice is satisfied, God's wrath is averted, and mercy
can be shown on the basis of an acceptable sacrifice.

Three times in the ?NT? Christ is spoken of as a propitiation. Here in
Romans 3:25 we learn that those who put their faith in Christ find mercy
by virtue of His shed blood. In 1 John 2:2 Christ is described as the
propitiation for our sins, and for those of the whole world. His work is
sufficient for the whole world but is only effective for those who put
their trust in Him. Finally, in 1 John 4:10, God's love was manifested in
sending His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

The prayer of the publican in Luke 18:13 was literally "God be propitious
to me, the sinner." He was asking God to show mercy to him by not
requiring him to pay the penalty of his aggravated guilt.

The word propitiation also occurs in Hebrews 2:17: "Therefore, in all
things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful
and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make
propitiation for the sins of the people." Here the expression "to make
propitiation" means to put away by paying the penalty.

The ?OT? equivalent of the word propitiation is mercy-seat. The
mercy-seat was the lid of the ark. On the Day of Atonement the high
priest sprinkled the mercy- seat with the blood of a sacrificial victim.
By this means errors of the high priest and of the people were atoned for
or covered.

When Christ made propitiation for our sins, He went much further. He not
only covered them but did away with them completely.

Now Paul tells us in 3:25 that God set Christ forth as a propitiation by
His blood, through faith. We are not told to put our faith in His blood;
Christ Himself is the object of our faith. It is only a resurrected and
living Christ Jesus who can save. He is the propitiation. Faith in Him is
the condition by which we avail ourselves of the propitiation. His blood
is the price that was paid.

The finished work of Christ declares God's righteousness for the
remission of sins that are past. This refers to sins committed before the
death of Christ. From Adam to Christ, God saved those who put their faith
in Him on the basis of whatever revelation He gave them. Abraham, for
example, believed God, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness (Gen.
15:6). But how could God do this righteously? A sinless Substitute had
not been slain. The blood of a perfect Sacrifice had not been shed. In a
word, Christ had not died. The debt had not been paid. God's righteous
claims had not been met. How then could God save believing sinners in the
OT period?

The answer is that although Christ had not yet died, God knew that He
would die, and He saved men on the basis of the still-future work of
Christ. Even if ?OT? saints didn't know about Calvary, God knew about it,
and He put all the value of Christ's work to their account when they
believed God. In a very real sense, ?OT? believers were saved on credit.
They were saved on the basis of a price still to be paid. They looked
forward to Calvary; we look back to it.

That is what Paul means when he says that the propitiation of Christ
declares God's righteousness because He had passed over the sins that
were previously committed. He is not speaking, as some wrongly think, of
sins which an individual person has committed before his conversion. This
might suggest that the work of Christ took care of sins before the new
birth, but that a man is on his own after that. No, he is dealing with
the seeming leniency of God in apparently overlooking the sins of those
who were saved before the cross. It might seem that God excused those
sins or pretended not to see them. Not so, says Paul. The Lord knew that
Christ would make full expiation, and so He saved men on that basis.

So the ?OT? period was a time of the forbearance of God. For at least
4000 years He held back His judgment on sin. Then in the fullness of time
He sent His Son to be the Sin-bearer. When the Lord Jesus took our sins
upon Himself, God unleashed the full fury of His righteous, holy wrath on
the Son of His love.

[3]

--------------------------------------------------------------------

[1]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (894).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

1 Or sinned a Rom 3:9 a Rom 4:4f, 16; Eph 2:8 b 1 Cor 1:30; Eph 1:7; Col
1:14; Heb 9:15 a 1 John 2:2; 4:10 1 Or a propitiatory sacrifice 2 Or by b
1 Cor 5:7; Heb 9:14, 28; 1 Pet 1:19; Rev 1:5 3 Lit because of the passing
over of the sins previously committed in the forbearance of God c Rom 2:4
d Acts 14:16; 17:30

[2]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Ro 3:23). LaHabra,
CA: The Lockman Foundation.

NT New Testament OT Old Testament

[3]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible
Commentary : Old and New Testaments (Ro 3:25). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
Ben Kaufman
2007-07-05 13:33:58 UTC
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Post by You Think
Post by Ben Kaufman
Post by You Think
Post by Uncle Vic
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
The end-times already happened for the dinosaurs. But the earth is still
here. When the universe ends, implodes, and another Big Bang creates a new
iteration of the previous matter, everything will start over. Eventually,
an intelligent sentient being will evolve somewhere. Let's hope it doesn't
fuck everything up and invent imaginary superheros, as ours did.
--
Uncle Vic
Hey vis, when I was a pre-teen, we would talk fantasies like that. U should
grow up a little and examine what people have written that had stood the
test of time and is shown to be protected by God Himself, unlike any other
human manuscript, and rewrite ur little understanding of your everlasting existence.
So you are saying you traded in you pre-teen belief in what astrophysicists told
you for what the Creator of the universe has come here as a man and has offered
all who believe in Him, His propituation for us, and the gift of eternal life, YES!
Ben
. Propitiation!
A man in Texas had the urge for a midnight snack. So he rolled out of bed
and walked down the hallway toward the kitchen. Passing the nursery, he
<SNIP>

You've posted this same cut and past drivel before as if it were some magical
shield that warped reality around your illogic. How about something from your
own mind?

Ben
yowie
2007-07-05 21:43:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Kaufman
Post by You Think
A man in Texas had the urge for a midnight snack. So he rolled out of bed
and walked down the hallway toward the kitchen. Passing the nursery, he
<SNIP>
You've posted this same cut and past drivel before as if it were some magical
shield that warped reality around your iilogic. How about something
from your own mind?
Nope.
You Think
2007-07-07 12:48:34 UTC
Permalink
"yowie" <***@tgips.cam> wrote in message news:***@tetypiv.cgs...
. My True Heart

. (Ephesians 3:14-21 NASB)

14 For this reason I ?a?bow my knees before the Father,

15 from whom ?1?every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,

16 that He would grant you, according to ?a?the riches of His glory,
to be ?b?strengthened with power through His Spirit in ?c?the inner man,

17 so that ?a?Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that
you, being ?b?rooted and ?c?grounded in love,

18 may be able to comprehend with ?a?all the ?1?saints what is ?b?the
breadth and length and height and depth,

19 and to know ?a?the love of Christ which ?b?surpasses knowledge,
that you may be ?c?filled up to all the ?d?fullness of God.

20 ?a?Now to Him who is ?b?able to do far more abundantly beyond all
that we ask or think, ?c?according to the power that works within us,

21 ?a?to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all
generations ?1?forever and ever. Amen.

[1]


3:14 Now the apostle picks up the thought he had begun in verse 1 and had
interrupted with a parenthetical section on the mystery. Therefore, the
words, For this reason, refer back to chapter 2 with its description of
what the Gentiles had been by nature and what they had become through
union with Christ. Their astonishing rise from poverty and death to riches
and glory drives Paul to pray they will always live in the practical
enjoyment of their exalted position.

His posture in prayer is indicated: I bow my knees. This does not mean
kneeling must always be the posture of the body, though it should always
be the posture of the soul. We may pray as we walk, sit, or recline, but
our spirits should be bowed in humility and reverence.

The prayer is addressed to the Father. In a general sense, God is the
Father of all mankind, meaning He is their Creator (Acts 17:28, 29). In a
more restricted sense, He is the Father of all believers, meaning He has
begotten them into His spiritual family (Gal. 4:6). In a unique sense He
is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, meaning They are equal (John
5:18).

3:15 The particular role of the Father which Paul has in view is as the
One from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named. This may
mean:

1. All the redeemed in heaven and on earth look to Him as Head of the
family.

2. All created beings, angelic and human, owe their existence to Him not
only as individuals but as families as well. Families in heaven include
the various grades of angelic creatures. Families on earth are the
different races springing from Noah and now divided into various nations.

3. All fatherhood in the universe derives its name from Him. The
Fatherhood of God is the original and the ideal; it is the prototype of
every other paternal relationship. Phillips translates the verse, "from
whom all fatherhood, earthly or heavenly, derives its name."

3:16 We cannot help but be struck by the vastness of Paul's request: That
He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory. He is going to
ask that the saints might be spiritually strengthened. But to what extent?
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown answer: "in abundance, consonant to the
riches of His glory; not 'according to' the narrowness of our hearts."? 20
Preachers often point out that there is a difference between the
expressions "out of the riches" and according to the riches. A wealthy
person might give a trifling amount; it would be out of his riches, but
not in proportion to them! Paul asks that God will give strength according
to the riches of His perfections. Since the Lord is infinitely rich in
glory, let the saints get ready for a deluge! Why should we ask so little
of so great a King? When someone asked a tremendous favor of Napoleon it
was immediately granted because, said Napoleon, "He honored me by the
magnitude of his request."

. - Thou art coming to a King,
. - Large petitions with thee bring;
. - For His grace and power are such,
. - None can ever ask too much.

. -John Newton

Now we come to Paul's specific prayer requests. Instead of a series of
disconnected petitions, we should think of them as a progression in which
each petition lays the groundwork for the next. Picture them as a pyramid:
the first request is the bottom layer of stones. As the prayer advances,
Paul builds toward a glorious climax.

The first request is that they would be strengthened with might through
His Spirit in the inner man. The blessing sought is spiritual power. Not
the power to perform spectacular miracles, but the spiritual vigor needed
to be mature, stable, intelligent Christians. The One who imparts this
power is the Holy Spirit. Of course, He can give us strength only as we
feed on the word of God, as we breathe the pure air of prayer, and as we
get exercise in daily service for the Lord.

This power is experienced in the inner man, that is, the spiritual part of
our nature. It is the inner man that delights in the law of God (Rom.
7:22). It is the inner man that is renewed day by day, even though the
outward man is perishing (2 Cor. 4:16). Though it is of God, our inner man
needs strength, growth, and development.

3:17 The second step is that Christ may dwell in your hearts through
faith. This is the result of the Spirit's invigoration: we are
strengthened in order that Christ may dwell in our hearts. Actually, the
Lord Jesus takes up His personal residence in a believer at the time of
conversion (John 14:23; Rev. 3:20). But that is not the subject of this
prayer. Here it is not a question of His being in the believer, but rather
of His feeling at home there! He is a permanent Resident in every saved
person, but this is a request that He might have full access to every room
and closet; that He might not be grieved by sinful words, thoughts,
motives, and deeds; that He might enjoy unbroken fellowship with the
believer. The Christian heart thus becomes the home of Christ, the place
where He loves to be-like the home of Mary, Martha, and Lazarus in Be
thany. The heart, of course, means the center of the spiritual life; it
controls every aspect of behavior. In effect, the apostle prays that the
lordship of Christ might extend to the books we read, the work we do, the
food we eat, the money we spend, the words we speak-in short, the minutest
details of our lives.

The more we are strengthened by the Holy Spirit, the more we will be like
the Lord Jesus Himself. And the more we are like Him, the more He will
"settle down and feel completely at home in our hearts" (KSW).

We enter into the enjoyment of His indwelling through faith. This involves
constant dependence on Him, constant surrender to Him, and constant
recognition of His "at home-ness." It is through faith that we "practice
His presence," as Brother Lawrence quaintly put it.

Up to this point Paul's prayer has involved each member of the Trinity.
The Father is asked (v. 14) to strengthen the believers through His Spirit
(v. 16) that Christ might be completely at home in their hearts (v. 17).
One of the great privileges of prayer is that we can engage the eternal
Godhead to work in behalf of others and ourselves.

The result of Christ's unrestricted access is that the Christian becomes
rooted and grounded in love. Here Paul borrows words from the worlds of
botany and building. The root of a plant provides nourishment and support.
The groundwork of a building is the foundation on which it rests. As
Scroggie says, "Love is the soil in which our life must have its roots;
and it is the rock upon which our faith must ever rest."? 21 To be rooted
and grounded in love is to be established in love as a way of life. The
life of love is a life of kindness, selflessness, brokenness, and
meekness. It is the life of Christ finding expression in the believer (see
1 Cor. 13:4-7).

3:18 The preceding requests have outlined a program of spiritual growth
and development which prepares the child of God to be fully able to grasp
with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height.

Before we consider the dimensions themselves, let us notice the
expression, with all the saints. The subject is so great that no one
believer can possibly grasp more than a small fraction of it. So there is
need to study, discuss, and share with others. The Holy Spirit can use the
combined meditations of a group of exercised believers to throw a flood of
additional light on the Scriptures.

The dimensions are generally taken to refer to the love of Christ,
although the text does not say this. In fact, the love of Christ is
mentioned separately in the following clause. If the love of Christ is
intended, then the connection might be shown as follows:

Width -The world (John 3:16)
Length -Forever (1 Cor. 13:8)
Depth -Even the death of the cross (Phil. 2:8)
Height -Heaven (1 John 3:1-2)

. F. B. Meyer expresses it well:

There will always be as much horizon before us as behind us. And when we
have been gazing on the face of Jesus for millenniums, its beauty will be
as fresh and fascinating and fathomless as when we first saw it from the
gate of Paradise.? 22

But these dimensions may also refer to the mystery which holds such an
important place in Ephesians. In fact, it is easy to find these dimensions
in the text itself:

1. The width is described in 2:11-18. It refers to the wideness of God's
grace in saving Jews and Gentiles, and then incorporating them into the
church. The mystery embraces both these segments of humanity.

2. The length extends from eternity to eternity. As to the past, believers
were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (1:4). As to the
future, eternity will be a perpetual unfolding of the exceeding riches of
His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (2:7).

3. The depth is vividly portrayed in 2:1-3. We were sunk in a pit of
unspeakable sin and degradation. Christ came to this jungle of filth and
corruption in order to die in our behalf.

4. The height is seen in 2:6, where we have not only been raised up with
Christ, but enthroned in Him in the heavenlies to share His glory. These
are the dimensions, then, of immensity and, indeed, infinity. As we think
of them, "all we can do," Scroggie says, "is to mark the order in this
tumult of holy words."

3:19 The apostle's next request is that the saints might knowby experi
ence the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ. They could never explore it
fully, because it is an ocean without shores, but they could learn more
and more about it from day to day. And so he prays for a deep,
experimental knowledge and enjoyment of the wonderful love of our
wonderful Lord.

The climax in this magnificent prayer is reached when Paul prays that you
may be filled with (?lit.? unto, ?Gk.? eis) all the fullness of God. All
the fullness of the Godhead dwells in the Lord Jesus (Col. 2:9). The more
He dwells in our hearts by faith, the more we are filled unto all the
fullness of God. We could never be filled with all the fullness of God.
But it is a goal toward which we move.

And yet having explained this, we must say there are depths of meaning
here we have not reached. As we handle the Scriptures, we are aware that
we are dealing with truths that are greater than our ability to understand
or explain. We can use illustrations to throw light on this verse, for
example, the thimble dipped in the ocean is filled with water, but how
little of the ocean is in the thimble! Yet when we have said all this, the
mystery remains, and we can only stand in awe at God's word and marvel at
its infinity.

H. Paul's Doxology (3:20, 21)

3:20 The prayer closes with a soul-inspiring doxology. The preceding
requests have been vast, bold, and seemingly impossible. But God is able
to do more in this connection than we can ask or think. The extent of His
ability is seen in the manner in which Paul pyramids words to describe
superabundant blessings:

Able
Able to do
Able to do what we ask
Able to do what we think
Able to do what we ask or think
Able to do all that we ask or think
Able to do above all that we ask or think
Able to do abundantly above all that we ask or think
Able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think

The means by which God answers prayer is given in the expression,
according to the power that works in us. This refers to the Holy Spirit,
who is constantly at work in our lives, seeking to produce the fruit of a
Christlike character, rebuking us because of sin, guiding us in prayer,
inspiring us in worship, directing us in service. The more we are yielded
to Him, the greater will be His effectiveness in conforming us to Christ.

3:21 To Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations,
forever and ever. Amen. God is the worthy object of eternal praise. His
wisdom and power are displayed in the angelic hosts; in sun, moon, and
stars; in animals, birds, and fish; in fire, hail, snow, and mist; in
wind; in mountains, hills, trees; in kings and people, old men and young;
in Israel and the nations. All these are intended to praise the name of
the Lord (Ps. 148).

But there is another group from which endless glory will be given to God,
that is, the church-Christ the Head and believers, the Body. This redeemed
community will be an eternal witness to His matchless, marvelous grace.
Williams writes:

The eternal glory of God as God and Father will be made visible throughout
all ages in the Church and in Christ Jesus. Amazing statement! Christ and
the Church as One Body will be the vehicle of that eternal demonstration.?
23

Even now the church should be giving glory to His name "in the services of
praise, in the pure lives of its members, in its world-wide proclamation
of the Gospel, and in its ministries to human distress and need" (Erdman).

The duration of this praise is to all generations, forever and ever. As we
hear Paul call for eternal praise to God in the church and in Christ
Jesus, the response of our hearts is a hearty Amen!

[2]


What was the cause? It was because of his deep interest in these
Ephesians. He wanted them to enter into the great truth of this
dispensation, this new economy in which we live, and to experience all the
riches of His grace in Christ Jesus. That was the background. That is why
he inserted the parenthesis between verses 1 and 14.

We have already called attention to the fact that Paul was a man of
prayer. This is the second great prayer of Paul in this epistle. As he
viewed the church as the poem of God, the temple of the Holy Spirit, the
mystery of the ages, he went to God in prayer that these great truths
might become realities in the lives of believers.

In this verse we have another characteristic of the prayers of Paul. It
reveals his posture in prayer. I do not want to be splitting hairs, but
here it is: "I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." I
don't insist that we all get down on our knees in our public prayer
meetings today. However, I rather wish that we did.

During my first pastorate in Nashville, Tennessee, I conducted a meeting
in Stone's River Church near Murfreesboro, Tennessee. It was one of the
best meetings I have ever had. It was a little country church, and when I
began, I said, "Let's bow our heads in prayer." I shut my eyes and heard a
rumbling. It sounded as if everyone was walking out; so I ventured a look.
I didn't see a soul and thought they had really walked out on me. Since I
was praying to the Lord, I just continued to pray. When I said, "Amen," I
opened my eyes and these people came up between those pews just like corn
coming up out of the ground! They had all been down on their knees. We had
a wonderful meeting. Now don't misunderstand me-I'm not saying we had a
great meeting just because they were down on their knees, but I do want to
say that I think it helped a great deal.

In the formality and ritual of our new churches with plush seats and
carpeted floors we are missing something in our relationship to the Lord.
My feeling is that there ought to be more easy familiarity with each other
in our churches but more worship and reverence for God, especially at the
time of prayer.

As creatures we ought to assume our proper place before our Creator and go
down on all fours before Him. Paul prayed that way and I have always felt
that was the proper posture. I must confess that since I have arthritis I
don't do it like I used to when I would get down right on my face in my
study and pray there. It is amazing how such a posture helps a person to
pray. I think it is something that is good for man. I don't insist on
this; I merely call your attention to it. This is the way Paul did it, and
I think he is a very good example for us today. Aren't we told that our
Lord went into the Garden of Gethsemane and fell on His face? I think it
would be proper for us if we would get down on our faces before God.

There is another point which I think is rather important to note. We have
here that Paul prayed to God the Father in the name of the Lord Jesus
Christ. You will also notice that back in chapter 1, verse 17, he prayed
to the "God of our Lord Jesus Christ." We find that this was his formula,
and I think it is a rather tight formula to address all prayers to God the
Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Someone may say, "Aren't you
splitting hairs?" Listen to the Lord Jesus: "And in that day ye shall ask
me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the
Father in my name, he will give it you" (John 16:23, italics mine).

The disciples had been with our Lord for three years. I think they were
like a group of children in many ways. I think it was, "Gimme, gimme" a
great deal of the time. Then our Lord told them that He would be leaving
them. After that they would not ask Jesus for anything. They were to
direct their requests to the Father in the name of Jesus. What does Jesus
mean by that? He means simply that if you and I were to pray to the Lord
Jesus directly, we would rob ourselves of an intercessor. Jesus Christ is
our great Intercessor. To pray in Jesus' name means we go to God the
Father with a prayer that the Lord Jesus Himself can lift to the Father
for you and me.

We need to be very careful in our prayer life. Now that I am retired, I
notice things I never noticed before. I was in a service not long ago in
which they called on a visiting brother to pray for the meetings at this
conference. The conference had gotten off to a marvelous start. The music
had been excellent, the pastor had presided well, then they called on this
brother to pray. He prayed for a great many things, and I counted three
times that he prayed for me. When he prayed for me the second time, my
reaction was, Well, you don't need to tell the Lord that again! Then when
he said it the third time, I thought, He will turn the Lord off-He'll get
tired of hearing that repetitious prayer. Perhaps after this brother had
looked me over he decided I really needed praying for three times!
Nevertheless, it was vain repetition as the heathen use. The Lord heard
him the first time. We need to be very careful in our prayer life.

Have you noticed that Paul's prayers are brief? Both prayers here in
Ephesians and his prayer in Philippians are brief. In fact, all the
prayers of Scripture are quite brief. The Lord Jesus said that we are not
to use vain repetition as the heathen do-they think they will be heard for
their much speaking. Moses' great prayer for Israel is recorded in only
three verses. Elijah, on top of Mount Carmel as he stood alone for God
against the prophets of Baal, prayed a great prayer which is only one
verse long. Nehemiah's great prayer is recorded in only seven verses. The
prayer of our Lord in John 17 takes only three minutes to read. But the
briefest prayer is that of Simon Peter, ". Lord, save me" (Matt. 14:30).
He cried out this prayer when he was beginning to sink beneath the waves
of the Sea of Galilee. Some people think that was not a prayer because it
was so short. My friend, that was a prayer, and it was answered
immediately. If Simon Peter had prayed like some of us preachers pray on
Sunday morning, "Lord, Thou who art the omnipotent, the omniscient, the
omnipresent One .," he would have been twenty feet under water before he
got to his request. I tell you, he got down to business. Prayer should be
brief and to the point.

Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named [Eph. 3:15].

God has a wonderful family. A great many folk think that it is only me and
mine-we four and no more. But it's a little wider than that. Some folk
feel that their little clique in the church is the only group the Lord is
listening to. Some people think their local church constitutes the saints.
Then there are others who think their denomination is the whole family of
God. Then there are some who think it is just the church-that is, those
saved from the Day of Pentecost to the Rapture. My friend, God saved
people long before the church came into existence, and He is going to be
saving people after the church leaves. Also God has other members of His
family. The angels belong to His family. He has created intelligences
which the apostle John saw and said cannot be numbered. All of those are
the family of God.

That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be
strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;

That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and
grounded in love,

May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length,
and depth, and height;

And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be
filled with all the fulness of God [Eph. 3:16-19].

Notice again that he prays according to the riches of His glory, not out
of the riches of His glory. If He would take it out of His riches, He
would be like Mr. Rockefeller who used to give his caddy a dime.

There are four definite petitions here which Paul makes on behalf of the
Ephesian believers.

1. The petition is that the believers might "be strengthened with might
[power] by his Spirit in the inner man." The spiritual nature of the
believer needs prayer as well as does the physical. How often the
spiritual is neglected while all the attention is given to the physical
side. Paul prays for the inner man because he realizes that the outward
man is passing away. Power is needed to live the Christian life, to grow
in grace, and to develop into full maturity-which is the work of the Holy
Spirit.

We tend to pray a great deal for the outward man. It is a marvelous way to
pray, praying for the physical needs of folk. Paul did, and he prayed for
himself. Three times he asked God to remove the thorn in his flesh. It is
wonderful to know that God does hear and does answer prayer, but we need
to remember that the spiritual nature of the believer needs prayer as well
as the physical. Only the Holy Spirit can supply power, living, and growth
for the full maturity of the believer.

2. In the second petition Paul prays that "Christ may dwell in your hearts
by faith." This is to think the Lord's thoughts after Him. "Ye in me and I
in you." Paul could exclaim, ". Christ liveth in me ." (Gal. 2:20). In
Christ is the high word of this epistle. The wonderful counterpart of it
is that Christ is in us. In Christ-that is our position. Christ in us-that
is our possession. That is the practical side of it. "Examine yourselves,
whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own
selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Cor.
13:5).

Christ has not come as a temporary visitor. He has come as a permanent
tenant by means of the Spirit to live in our lives. "I am the vine, ye are
the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth
much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing" (John 15:5).

3. The third petition is a request that the believers may know the
dimensions of the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ. He prays that they
may be "rooted and grounded in love." "Rooted" refers to botany, to life.
"Grounded" refers to architecture, to stability. This is for all the
saints.

Paul wants them to "know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge." The
vast expanse of the love of Christ is the love of God Himself. From this
launching pad we can begin to measure that which is immeasurable and to
know that which passes knowledge. This is one of the many paradoxes of the
believer's life.

The breadth. The arms of Christ reach around the world. "I am the door: by
me if any man enter in, he shall be saved ." (John 10:9). ". him that
cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37).

The length. The length of it begins with the Lamb slain before the
foundation of the world and proceeds unto the endless ages of eternity.

The depth. The depth goes all the way to Christ's death on the cross. "And
being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient
unto death, even the death of the cross" (Phil. 2:8).

The height. The height reaches to the throne of God. "Who, being in the
form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" (Phil. 2:6).

Only the Holy Spirit can lead a believer into this vast experience of the
love of Christ. Since it is infinite, it is beyond human comprehension.

4. The fourth petition is a final outburst of an all-consuming fervor that
believers "might be filled up to all the fulness of God." Christ was thus
filled. In proportion to our comprehension of the love of Christ, we shall
be filled with all the fullness of God.

Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask
or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world
without end. Amen [Eph. 3:20-21].

This is both a doxology and a benediction which concludes the prayer of
Paul. It also concludes the first main division of this epistle. This is a
mighty outburst of spiritual praise, which any comment would only tarnish.
We are not able to so much as touch the hem of the garment of the
spiritual gifts that God is prepared to give to His own. How wonderful
this is! He wants to give to us super-abundantly. How good He is, and how
small we are. We cannot even contain all of His blessings.

[3]


. JESUS: AT HOME IN YOUR HEART

A Topical Study of
Ephesians 3:14-17

Confusion must have filled their hearts. Questions must have flooded their
minds, for hadn't Jesus said, "In My Father's house are many mansions. I
go to prepare a place for you" (see John 14:2)? Why, then, a few moments
later did He say, "If a man love Me, He will keep My words. My Father will
love him and We will come unto him and make our abode with him" (see John
14:23)?

"I'm going to prepare a place for you," Jesus said-"and yet I will come
and live in you." We see Paul the apostle using the same imagery in our
text when he says his prayer is that Christ will dwell in our hearts by
faith. The Greek word translated "dwell" is katoikeo. Oikeo means "to
dwell in a house." Kat means "down." Therefore, katoikeo means "down
home."

The idea is that Jesus would be completely at home in our hearts.

"Behold, I stand at the door of your heart and knock," Jesus said. "If any
man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him and will sup
with him and he with Me" (Revelation 3:20).

Holman Hunt's famous painting, depicting Jesus standing at the door of
what appears to be an English cottage, hangs in St. Paul's Cathedral in
London.

"There's a problem with your painting, Mr. Hunt," a critic is reported to
have said upon first viewing his work. "There's no doorknob on the door."

"Ah," Mr. Hunt is said to have replied, "the door handle is only on the
inside, for it's up to the one within to respond to the knock of Jesus."

Jesus will not force His way into a heart. He won't barge in where He's
not welcome. He's a perfect gentleman who knocks and says, "If you'll
respond to Me, I'll come in and dine with you. But the choice is up to
you."

Most of us have made that choice. We heard His knock and said, "Come in,
Lord. Come into the home of my heart." And He did.

The Living Room

The first room He saw in the home of my heart was the living room. "Nice
room," He said.

"Thanks, Lord. It's one of my favorite spots because it's relatively quiet
and secluded."

"I'll meet you here every morning of every day," He said. "Before the day
gets going, I'll meet you here in the early morning, and we'll talk about
what's ahead. When I walked in Israel, I needed instruction and help daily
from My Father. So morning by morning, the Father spoke into My ear,
giving me the tongue of the learned that I should know how to speak a word
in season to him that is weary (Isaiah 50:4). And now I'll do the same for
you."

What followed was great. I would come into the living room, a fire would
be crackling in the fireplace, and Jesus would be there, ready to talk
with me and listen to me. It was a great way to start the day. As time
went on, however, things got busy, or so I thought. Rushing out the door
to a meeting, I caught a glimpse of Him, sitting. And I realized I hadn't
met with Him for a number of mornings. I stopped in my tracks and walked
sheepishly over to where He was sitting, thinking He would lecture me. But
He didn't. There was a smile on His face and a sparkle in His eye as He
said, "As I was saying." continuing the conversation we had shared the
last time we were together. And I understood then, truly, that there is no
condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). He just
continues to make Himself available morning by morning to help me speak
wisely and to navigate life successfully.

The Study

As the morning drew to a close, Jesus said, "What is that room over
there?"

"Oh, that's my study. Come on in." He followed me in, and I noticed He was
looking rather intently at the books on the shelves.

"Look, Lord," I said proudly, "I've got all the latest bestsellers:
Winning Through Intimidation, Watch Out for Number One, I'm OK You're OK,
Dressed for Success, and Awakening the Giant Within.

"Do these books work?" He asked.

"Not really," I answered. "That's why I keep collecting more."

"How about a book trade?" He asked.

"Sure, Lord. What do You have in mind?"

You give Me your books, and I'll give you sixty-six books bound in a
single volume-one that will make you unashamed as you study to show
yourself approved unto Me (2 Timothy 2:15), one that comes with an
incredible guarantee that if you meditate upon it day and night, you will
navigate life prosperously and successfully" (Joshua 1:8).

He took my books. I took His. And suddenly my study was filled with a Book
that would intrigue me for the rest of my life.

The Family Room

"What's that I hear down the hall?" Jesus asked.

"That's my family room," I said, opening the door. My kids stopped their
playing and rushed toward Him.

"Back off, you guys," I said, laughing.

"I think I've heard that before," He said, "when some other disciples
tried to keep their kids away from Me (see Matthew 19:13). Allow them to
come."

So they tackled Him, and He wrestled with my kids on the floor. They had
the time of their lives. Then He calmed them down a bit and began telling
them stories. I could see my oldest son nod his head in agreement, and a
smile on the face of my youngest daughter. Suddenly, a peace enveloped the
room that was usually so rambunctious, so disorderly, so chaotic.

"This is amazing, Lord," I said. "You've altered this room radically."

"That's why I asked you, as head of the house, to let me into the family
room," He said. "I'll alter your kids, your marriage, your home, if you
will build a family altar to Me. You see, more than any other group of
people-more than your congregation or your elders or your friends-your
wife and your kids are your primary disciples. So bring your family
together, and learn of Me. There's nothing more important you can do."

The Recreation Room

Hearing a knock on the door, I opened it to find my buddies. We walked
down the hall into the recreation room. "Lord, You wouldn't like it in
here," I said. "This group is real rowdy. So I'll meet you in the living
room in an hour or so."

The boys and I grabbed our pool cues, turned on the radio, and began doing
what we did every Tuesday. But this time, it didn't work. The jokes just
weren't as funny, and the conversation suddenly seemed shallow and empty.
Even the lyrics of the music bothered me. After half an hour or so, I
heard a knock on the door. It was Jesus.

He began to talk with my buddies, and I was absolutely amazed because they
all loved Him. Oh, a couple of guys got upset and stormed out. But I
learned later they weren't my friends after all. They just wanted to use
my pool table.

I learned that Jesus is the Life of the party in the truest sense of the
word. I also learned that I'm free to do anything as long as I have Him
with me because He changes the atmosphere. Now, if I go into a party and
the party changes me, then I must leave. But if the party changes and
people start thinking about Jesus as a result of my being there, I am
free. And I discovered that Jesus Christ had spoiled me-for I had too much
of Him to enjoy the old spots. So I've learned to bring the Lord with me
to all of my recreational pursuits, and to watch how He infuses them with
His life.

The Dining Room

After working up quite an appetite, I said, "Lord, let's go get something
to eat." We went into the dining room and sat down to my usual meal.

"This is what you eat?" the Lord asked.

"Every day," I answered.

"Really? This is the way you satisfy your appetite?" He asked
incredulously as He looked at the large glob of cotton candy on my plate.

"This is the way I try to satisfy my cravings," I said. "I must admit,
however, that although it looks good, when I take a bite, there's just
nothing there. That's why I follow it with a hot fudge sundae. I eat the
ice cream and the hot fudge and the whipped cream, and there's something
there, all right-but every time I'm done, I feel sick. So I decide never
to have another one. Then about five hours later, I think another hot
fudge sundae would taste pretty good, so I dish one up again. But although
I feel full-I never feel satisfied.

After hearing this, He went into the kitchen and came back a few minutes
later with a most interesting meal for me: a little cup full of juice and
a little piece of unleavened bread. "This is My body, eat of Me. This is
my blood. Drink deeply," He said.

Something happened at my table that evening. It became the Lord's table.
And it became incredibly satisfying to commune with Jesus. Feeling
satisfied in a way I never had before, I suddenly understood what He meant
when He said, "Whoever drinks of the water I shall give shall never thirst
again" (see John 4:14).

Brother or sister-if you're thirsting today, it's because you've gone back
to the old watering holes. If you're feeling empty and troubled, it's
because you've gone back to the old ways. Whoever drinks of the water of
the world will thirst over and over again, for it will never be enough.
But whoever drinks of the water Jesus gives, will be satiated at last.

The Workshop

"What's behind that door?" the Lord asked.

"That's my workshop. I don't go out there much anymore," I said, opening
the door, to find some unfinished wooden planes and cars on the worktable.
"I've lost interest in these things," I said, "Besides, I'm not that good
at woodworking"

"I'm a Master Carpenter," He said. "I can give you some help on these
projects." So He gave me some advice on putting them together.

Then He said, "Now take those toys-the hobby you've been pursuing-and give
them away."

So I grabbed my little toys, found some kids at the park, and said, "You
guys want some planes and cars?" Their eyes lit up. And suddenly my hobby
made sense.

"So that's what You meant, Lord, when You told us that in the measure we
give out, it will be given back," I said (see Luke 6:38).

People garden, paint, remodel, bowl, and collect things only to get bored
and go on to the next hobby. If hobbies, however, were used for someone
else, what a difference it would make. You who like to garden-mow
someone's lawn for free next Saturday and leave a note on the door saying,
"God bless you." You who like to bake-make some cookies and give them to
someone in need in Jesus' name. You who like to ride bikes-how about
taking a kid who doesn't have a dad on a ride around the lake? In this
way, biking, gardening, and baking have meaning because you're in the
workshop using the talents and interests God gave you to share with
others. Use those talents only for yourself, and you'll be boring and
shallow. But give them away, and you'll be blown away with blessing.

What a difference the Lord has made in my heart. The workshop has meaning
again. The family room is not so chaotic. The dining room satisfies the
appetites and cravings of my heart. The study is rich with wisdom and
insight.

But one day, the Lord said to me, "From the day I came in here, I've
smelled something foul. It's making Me ill-not because of how it affects
Me-but because I know it is poisonous to you and your family. There's a
toxic dump somewhere in this house, and I've determined it's behind that
door right down the hall."

"Oh, Lord," I said, "that's just an old closet. I'm going to take care of
it sometime. I know it stinks, but You'll grow accustomed to it. Trust me,
I've had it for a number of years, and I don't even notice anymore."

"Can I have a look?" He asked.

"No, Lord," I said. "I've given You entry into every room in the house of
my heart. But that one closet is mine. I know it stinks, but it's mine.
You're welcome to go where You want and do what You wish in every other
room-but that closet belongs to me."

With that, He slipped away into the farthest corner of the home. And
suddenly, the family room lost its life. The study became tedious. The old
songs began to be played in the recreation room. And the dining room table
held only cotton candy and hot fudge sundaes. After several days, I said,
"Lord, I don't want You stuck off in a corner of the house. I want You to
move around freely. I need You in my family room. I need You in my study.
I need You in the living room. But I can't deal with that closet, Lord. I
don't know what to do."

"All I'm asking," He replied, "is that you agree with Me that it stinks
and that it's got to go. I'll do the rest-but you must give me your
permission." That's what confession is. Confession simply means to agree.
That's why the apostle John says if we confess our sin, He will be
faithful and just to forgive our sin and to cleanse us from all
unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

I had forgotten how good a house could smell. I was reminded of the home
of Mary, Martha, and Lazarus. Mary poured ointment on Jesus, and John
records that the fragrance filled the whole house (John 12:3). In other
words, the whole house smelled like Jesus.

"Lord, You have been such a wonderful influence in the house of my heart,"
I said. "From now on, it's Your house. I'll be the guest. You be the
owner.

Smiling, He said, "I have a better idea. Now that you've given Me your
house, let's go to My house. I've been working on it for two thousand
years. I can't wait to show you what I've prepared for you."

Once I gave Him control of my home, His work was done. Now He could take
me to His home. And that's a whole new story. I can't tell it to you
because eyes have not seen and ears have not heard the things God has
prepared for those who love Him (1 Corinthians 2:9). It's a story beyond
description.

That's where we're going, gang. You who, by faith, have allowed Christ to
dwell in your hearts, to be at home in your hearts, will soon find
yourself at home in the place He's preparing for you. In the meantime,
while we await that day, we can experience a bit of heaven in our lives
presently as we allow Him to be at home in every room of our hearts. May
the Lord help us to give Him the keys to every closet, the title deed to
the home in its entirety. May we be those who say, "Come on in, Lord. It's
all Yours."

[4]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

a Phil 2:10
1 Or the whole
a Eph 1:18; 3:8
b 1 Cor 16:13; Phil 4:13; Col 1:11
c Rom 7:22
a John 14:23; Rom 8:9f; 2 Cor 13:5; Eph 2:22
b 1 Cor 3:6; Col 2:7
c Col 1:23
a Eph 1:15
1 V ?8, note 1?
b Job 11:8f
a Rom 8:35, 39
b Phil 4:7
c Col 2:10
d Eph 1:23
a Rom 16:25
b 2 Cor 9:8
c Eph 3:7
a Rom 11:36

1 Lit of the age of the ages

[1]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Eph 3:14-21). LaHabra,
CA: The Lockman Foundation.

? 20 (3:16) Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown, Commentary Practical and
Explanatory on the Whole Bible, VI:408.

? 21 (3:17) W. Graham Scroggie, "Paul's Prison Prayers," the Ministry of
Keswick, Second Series, p. 49.

? 22 (3:18) Meyer, Key Words, pp. 53, 54.

lit. literal, literally

Gk. Greek

? 23 (3:21) George Williams, The Student's Commentary on the Holy
Scriptures, p. 925.

[2]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary
: Old and New Testaments (Eph 3:14). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

[3]McGee, J. V. (1997, c1981). Thru the Bible commentary. Based on the
Thru the Bible radio program. (electronic ed.) (5:245-248). Nashville:
Thomas Nelson.

[4]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1243).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
ur_droll
2007-07-05 22:09:49 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 6, 1:33 am, Ben Kaufman <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-
Post by Ben Kaufman
Post by You Think
Post by Ben Kaufman
Post by You Think
Post by Uncle Vic
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
The end-times already happened for the dinosaurs. But the earth is still
here. When the universe ends, implodes, and another Big Bang creates a new
iteration of the previous matter, everything will start over. Eventually,
an intelligent sentient being will evolve somewhere. Let's hope it doesn't
fuck everything up and invent imaginary superheros, as ours did.
--
Uncle Vic
Hey vis, when I was a pre-teen, we would talk fantasies like that. U should
grow up a little and examine what people have written that had stood the
test of time and is shown to be protected by God Himself, unlike any other
human manuscript, and rewrite ur little understanding of your everlasting existence.
So you are saying you traded in you pre-teen belief in what astrophysicists told
you for what the Creator of the universe has come here as a man and has offered
all who believe in Him, His propituation for us, and the gift of eternal life, YES!
Ben
. Propitiation!
A man in Texas had the urge for a midnight snack. So he rolled out of bed
and walked down the hallway toward the kitchen. Passing the nursery, he
<SNIP>
You've posted this same cut and past drivel before as if it were some magical
shield that warped reality around your illogic. How about something from your
own mind?
Ben
Wouldn't that result in a blank post?
You Think
2007-07-07 12:49:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mickey
. The Edge of Eternity
http://76.162.173.93/prophecy/=CD-R=the-edge-of-eternity-ar/
Your future hangs in the balance...or does it?
Join Adrian Rogers as he explores what the Bible
says about prophecy and the end times. There is
hope as you delve into the Truth of God's Word
and gain insights into what God says about your
future.
Continue reading on narkive:
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